"It's possible to shift habits even if you haven't slept well for 10, 20, or 30 years, but that doesn't mean you have to remain this way for the rest of your life. It's also really important to have somebody you trust- who can hold that space for you and be that guiding light". - Olivia Arezzolo
Sleep- a naturally recurring altered state of consciousness in which all our vital systems get restored, and our psyche unfurls. The timing of our sleep depends on hormonal signals from the circadian clock- the circadian clock synchronises with solar time (light). Naturally, when our circadian clock shifts out of rhythm-sleep quality and overall vitality will be affected. However, as we will learn in today's episode with Australia's leading sleep expert Olivia Arezzolo- it is also the psychology and somatics of sleep that cradle sleep issues and disorders into existence.
The subject of sleep from the Tao is something that weaves its way into many conversations on the podcast- last year Mason recorded a brilliant episode with Qi practitioner Jost Sauer, The Importance of Sleep For Healthy Hun and Qi. Today, sleep expert Olivia Arezzolo moves beyond the top-line sleep supports (no blue light/devices before bed, magnesium, diet, dark room, routine etc.) to the deeper elements at play causing havoc with people's rest. We're talking about the stories and beliefs that exist around sleep- "I'm a light sleeper", "I've always been a bad sleeper", "I've just got too much on at the moment", "I can't sleep because I'm stressed".
Olivia's repertoire of studies is one of the things that make her approach to guiding people to better sleep so successful. With studies in psychology, sleep psychology, personal development, nutrition, and fitness- her guidance to better sleep is a symbiotic combination of all these elements. Her coaching and programmes provide people with a step-by-step guide to long-term healthy sleep practices that work.
Within Olivia's work, there is a distinct consideration for the Yin and the Yang- an integration of practical sleep support tools and the assertion of more complex psychological factors that sabotage sleep.
Olivia discusses the three chronotypes of sleep that most people fit into, which she has also written a book about (Bear, Lion, Wolf). Olivia explains how the chronotypes reflect one's inherent circadian rhythm preference, and through knowing our 'Sleep type'- the path to better sound sleep will become one of less resistance.
Tune in, and scroll down for lots of beautiful resources Olivia offers on her website, including the chronotype quiz- where you can discover and learn more about your sleep type.
In this episode Olivia and Mason discuss:
- Sleep anxiety.
- Sleep saboteurs.
- Sleep psychology.
- Sleep chronotypes.
- Sleep support tools.
- Why sleep guidance/coaching?
- Personal development for sleep.
- Embracing the Yin for better sleep.
- Being fluid within our sleep structure.
- Basic (fundamental) supporters of sleep.
- Living in alignment with the Dao for sound sleep.
- Sleep strategies that are accessible for everyone.
- How lack of sleep affects our hormones and health.
- CBTI therapy (cognitive behavioural therapy for insomnia)
"What do you believe about feeling rested? Many people believe that if they feel rested, it means they haven't worked hard enough. It means that they haven't been busy enough. It means that they've indulged too much. It means that they're relaxing too much. It means they're being lazy. If you have these thought patterns in your head, you can certainly move towards healthy sleep, but at some point, consciously or subconsciously, you'll sabotage everything- because fundamentally, you've attached these stories to your relationship with sleep".
- Olivia Arezzolo
Who is Olivia Arezzolo?
Olivia Arezzolo is Australia’s leading Sleep Expert, Speaker and Author.
After 9 years of study, Olivia’s qualifications include a Bachelor of Social Science (Psychology), Certificate of Sleep Psychology, Diploma of Health Science (Nutritional Medicine), and a Certificate 3+4 in Fitness.
To date, Olivia has been featured on Forbes, The Today Show and The Morning Show; partnered with global brands including Sealy Posturepedic and Ikea, has her own column in the leading health publication in Australia - Body and Soul - and has recently released her book, Bear, Lion or Wolf, now published in 11 countries.
Tune in, and scroll down for lots of beautiful resources Olivia offers on her website, including the chronotype quiz- discover and learn more about your sleep type.
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Check Out The Transcript Here:
Let's jump in. Olivia, thank you so much for coming. Really appreciate it. How's Italy vibes going?
Italy is pretty good, Mason. How are you doing? And thank you for having me. It's a pleasure. I know that we've connected a few times on Instagram and through your team. And it's just beautiful to share space with you now, so thanks.
Yeah, my pleasure. It was one of those funny ones where someone sent your account there or I was just doing one of my patented random slew things around SuperFeast, Instagram, and you popped up. And I think I just did a random reach out and I think for me, it was Reishi Mushroom. There's so many different sleep herbs that we have. Obviously sleep gets talked about so much in terms of approaching it from the Dao, in terms of looking at the cultivation of ourselves, of embracing the yin, so on and so forth. Or if it's just the wellness world of just like, "And make sure you're sleeping well." And everyone's just, "Okay, cool. That's a thing on my list of how to be healthy is to sleep well."
And then I saw your... I love your Instagram page, Australia's Number One Sleep Expert. And I was like, "Yeah." I'm curious as to hear your story about specialising there. And there is of course, whole institutions dedicated to this elusive, freaky weird thing that is sleep where so much happens and replenishes us for the day. And sometimes it's elusive and all, it's just such a trip. So I'm really interested to jump in with you because naturally, like everyone else, it comes up a lot in the ebb and flow flow of people. We want to work with people for decades and decades, and we're leading towards them being rad elders when they're 80 years old or elders. And just in the sense for my sense of the cultivation of their shen and shining the diamond of their mind and personality. And in order to achieve that, you need to have an intimate cultivating relationship with yin and with your sleep.
So I just think in terms of cultivating a long-term, healthy culture and lifestyle habit around sleep in a way that isn't like, "Here you go, here's the checklist, and then it's going to be good for the rest of your life," but something just to help us develop more and more of an intimate relationship with that beautiful thing that is sleep. I'm looking forward to it, selfishly. I don't know where to start and be like, "Tell us what got you interested in sleep in the first place?" I'd be just curious just for you to jump in where you are with your relationship with sleep at the moment, you're moving country... I'd just love to know your current world, especially around sleep.
Yeah, sure. So I guess my current world around sleep outside of physically being in Italy now, opposed to being in Australia, it hasn't really changed outside of my expertise because it's not like I ever had sleeping problems and then I overcame them and that's why I specialised in sleep. More so, I'm very, very fortunate that my sleep has always been quite good quality and it's still is. Admittedly in Europe now, it's definitely shifting to a later time zone, like having dinner at 10:00 PM, opposed to 6:00 PM is quite regular. And so that definitely shifts back my sleep time and my wake time. But outside of that, I still have pretty good quality sleep and wake feeling pretty refreshed, I'm very, very fortunate in that sense.
I think professionally, again, that hasn't changed, it's just I continue to support people, both individuals and also the media with my sleep advice. So exactly as you mentioned, it's all about creating that relationship with sleep where you appreciate it and know what to do to ensure that long-term it can serve you. And that's really the approach that I have. I have a background... My studies are in psychology, sleep psychology, nutrition, and fitness. And my approach to sleep is to combine all of those elements and provide step by step guides to sleeping better using psychology, and or sleep psychology, and or nutrition, and or fitness. So I feel like that's still continuing now.
What's firing you up at the moment? Because I've been thinking a lot, people asking me about... You get the same FAQs, "What's the best herb for this and how do I...? And I'm like, "Yeah, cool. It is about the herbs," but there's always a sizzle rather than the sausage and that's always the best. So I'm interested, not that I think that there maybe is an end point for you, or maybe there is, that the sleep is a vessel for you to have a wider conversation, having psychology there... But when you follow the thread of you've taken the mantle of specialising with sleep, which I think is really cool, but where does it go for you? In the heart or heart of your businesses and your offerings, is there something that you connect to, or is your lighthouse that you move towards, the impact that you want this to have on people?
So a great question, I love it. So sleep is definitely a vessel for me. So when I was 14, I was deeply depressed and tried to take my own life. Fortunately I didn't. And then when I was 16, I was hospitalised for anorexia for six weeks as an inpatient and three months as outpatient, and I was still very, very depressed and I was also struggling with anxiety. So over the course of that period, I was very, very unwell, and then I went from being very well unwell, and then I had to learn how to fight for my life otherwise I wouldn't have been here and I would've just continued to be really unwell.
So there was a point where instead of resisting support, I surrendered and I gave in to having support. And then I did recover and I did have a upward journey, which has been beautiful because then I could live an abundant life and be happy again and enjoy my life again and enjoy memories and not just be stuck in a hospital ward because I couldn't take care of myself.
So that experience taught me that my job, my mission, in the world is to help others transform in that way too. So I wanted everyone to feel, to move from their darkest, into their light. And that's still why I do what I do, that's what led me to my studies because I thought, "Okay, well, I can't just have my knowledge, I need to have academic studies behind me so I can really help and really understand the science of it." And so I started coaching in different areas and then I ended up specialising in sleep. But the thing is that the reason I specialised in sleep, isn't so much because I have the greatest affinity to sleep, the reason I specialise in sleep is because others need sleep help the most. If you think about there's so many people that help with nutrition, with fitness, with mindset, nobody does sleep.
And I saw this and I was like, "If I had a sleep problem, who would I go to? I don't know." And I didn't know at the time and this was 2018 and I was like, "I think I need to be that sleep person because A, my degrees allowed me to help really easily because that's what my sleep clients were getting, really good results. And this means that I'm helping people feel their best inside and out exactly as I intended when I was 17, in a way that they want to be helped. And so in terms of the moving forward, it continues to be a vessel, but I don't help for sleep's sake, I help because my ultimate aim is to help individuals feel their best inside and out, and I know that by delivering via sleep, they're the most interested to do so.
The first thing I thought was had a bit of a nice romance to it, you've taken us through the story and that was obviously a very dark period in your life and you wouldn't be the person that you are now without it, and you went through it. And you went through it, there was some kind of harrowing quality there that gave you an initiation into coming out and butterflies, blah, blah, blah, all that kind of beautiful stuff. And then you said you want to help people go from darkness to the light. And it kind of made me think a lot of the time in order to get to the light, going drudging through the dark shit, you need to go through with a guide. It's a classic hero's journey, dark night of the soul, it happens every night when we go to sleep.
I kind of resonate, I'll talk to you. I'm interested to talk more about it. I'm sure it'll come up when we go into your, I don't know if you call them archetypes, is it three archetypes of person and help, but act as a bit of a map of how we could relate to sleep in the patterns, I'm really keen to jump in pretty chuffed. We're lion? Is that we're lions?
We are lions, yes.
But just something just struck me in your going to the light, but your work is in the dark. And with your psychology background, obviously I can see a resonance there and see in terms of what you're saying and it's just something really beautiful about that. And the who to go to for sleep, I've been in the crazy wellness world for a while and obviously it's a topic that comes up consistently, but of oftentimes it goes through waves of, not fattiness, just waves of everyone saying the same thing and, "Yes, blue light this, and "Yes." And then the hormone stats come out and one pinnacle person and then all the other health people are parroting the same things. And that's good, but it's different to a consistent space with someone who's championing your sleep and you come by your message again and you're saying the same thing and you're having a consistent...
That's kind of what I like about your page is I'm like, "Oh yeah, there you are," just still living your life and championing sleep. That's what I endeavour to do with SuperFeast, 11 years of just being like, "Yeah. We'll be here, we'll be championing you on tonic herbal journey. And then you'll go away and then you'll come back and deepen." And so for me, someone I don't relate to having a problem with sleep, although it's something I know I can really treat more as a practise and create a bit more intimacy, because I don't like being still in life. And it's something, especially when I've got so much on life at the moment, I'm in a beautiful stage with the business, but it's intense and the newborn and a beautiful family, it's all absolute blessings. And I look at my sleep and I'm like, "Yeah, I know I could just tighten up that sleep a little bit."
But I've got that intrinsic, I don't even know fear is the appropriate word, but I'm just going to, whatever, blur it out. I've got that fear of stillness, I got that fear of stopping. I'm generally not someone that wants to sit be still. And while I hear my thoughts and so going... But just leading up to this conversation, it's got me thinking about it. So I think that's what I like about the role that you're playing here. You're just that pivotal point for me to swirl around, and thousands of others and think about and keep thinking about sleep and I can see why it would be fun for you as well and really fulfilling.
Well, thank you. I love that you see me as a pivotal point, that was my intention. And I feel like that's really important because so many people do struggle. Every second person you'll meet has a sleeping problem to some degree. And I know that when I was really unwell, I just wanted somebody to look up to, somebody to guide me forward. And for a long time I didn't have anyone and it just kept me stuck. You need to know that there's somebody out there that's got your back that can be a guiding light, that can say, "Hey, you know what? It's all right. We've got this together and I'm here for you."
And although my struggles weren't with sleep, it was the other things, it was still the same concept. I needed somebody to guide me into my best self and to say to me, "Hey, you know what? You're worth fighting for." In terms of my sleep clients, I say the same things to them that I was told to myself, that can change and you can evolve. And it is possible to shift habits even if you haven't slept well for 10, 20, 30 years, that doesn't mean that you have to remain this way for the rest of your life. And I think it's really important to have somebody who you trust, who is able to hold that space for you and to be that guiding light.
And I think especially when it comes to sleep because it's such a fundamental, basic need. And you don't even have to have a sleep problem to know that after just one night of not sleeping well, you feel awful. Hormonally, your cortisol levels are through the roof, they increase by 37% after one night, that stress hormone cortisol. So you're left feeling anxious and wired and awake and in irritable and moody. And that's just that's cortisol at one. There's all these other changes that happen in the brain, you lose your functioning capacity of your frontal lobe, which is responsible for decision making, emotional regulation, judgement , concentration, attention.
In terms of physical effects, your human growth hormone, the key hormone to govern recovery and cellular repair, 70% of that is produced in slow wave of sleep. So if you're not sleeping enough, you don't have that production of growth hormone, which is exactly why you wake up and you feel like you've just run a marathon because your body is like, "Hey, I haven't had my repair time, cannot." So these are the effects of sleep, sleeplessness. And to have that happen for one night is bad, but to have it happen night after night and not to not know when or how you are going to resolve that. And then you go to the doctor and all they do is they say here, here's some sleeping tablets, that's their solution. I'm like that, "No, that is not okay because sleeping tablets are not a long-term solution. You cannot take them for the rest of your life." But if you go to your trusted health practitioner and that's their solution, what are you meant to do? That's why I do what I do.
Yeah, you definitely, I think echoing the sentiment I think of a lot of people listening and definitely feeling. It's nice to be able feel fired up at that kind of negligence while solutions are at hand. It's especially nice when it's not just waving a fist at that very, so many times amazing, and so many times so overly excessive and egoic in, "I fix everything and I'm speculative of anyone that has any other opinion than me."
But in terms of... I'm in one of those moods where I've got a bajillion things swimming through my head, because you were talking about the impact that it has on the hormones, but I'm imagine the psyche, when you get into a habitual flow and you start accepting poor sleep. For us, we talk about jing a lot, being Daoist-focused. And that jing being our essence, wax of the candle. It's there to be used, it's there to create a beautiful life and beautiful learnings, but there's only so much, much wax. And at some point you're going to get to the point where there's no more wax and no more bone marrow and that'll be you off your pop.
But people in the world, we get people associating with coffee a lot and going, "Try lower the coffee and try jing herbs and generate your own energy." But when people are like, "How do I know when I'm really nailing the cultivation of jing?" And it's always for us coming back to sleep. It's the one barometer. And perhaps you go through periods where you're not sleeping well, and that's the same conversation we have with jing. We're like, "It's okay to get tired, which means you're doing things that gets you tired, but you are not allowed to get exhausted."
And it's probably the similar with sleep, it's like, you probably see, it's like, "Okay, cool. Healthy enough, not sleeping well. It's happening a few times, you've waking up at this..." Okay, but now you're getting into a pattern where this is going to get dangerous and that's when you get, for everyone listening, that's when the Jing leaks. There's a nice crossover here, I'm sure everyone is aware of it, but it's very severe, because if you do get into that, I can imagine you see people start freaking out, the fight or flight, because there's a subconscious primal fear to know you're killing yourself. I know that's extreme way a minute to put it, but you are leaking your essence and moving towards the death cycle faster. So that must be, for you, I can imagine having that, when you're working with serious cases, having that psyche awareness that you have, far out, because imagine just getting people confronting what's going on is incredible.
And I'd love to hear your thoughts on that, but then if you want to take it off and start laying this map for everyone listening, for how you approach it. I'm keen to hear more about the three archetypes and just map it out. Because everyone asks us and we're like, "Gosh, there's so many reasons from a Daoist perspective." It could be liver deficiency. It could be overactive... It could be spleen issues could be leading to that anxiety, unable to digest life sorts. It could be problems, anxiousness with the heart and excess fire, all these kinds of things. You go talk to an acupuncturist and it's just, of course.... But we like to bring it simple, that's why I wanted to chat to you now let's land it and create that map for people to land in the yin so they can find their light.
I love it. Yeah I think there's definitely different approaches to any element of our health and sleep is included. An acupuncturist is going to have one approach, a naturopath is going to have another. For me, I have quite a holistic view. I mentioned before, I combine nutrition, psychology, sleep psychology and essentially physiology or fitness. So my approach is to utilise the science in each of those elements. So for example, things like, I know that a lot of people talk about it, but it's something that I appreciate, is the impact of blue light. And also the impact of caffeine and the impact... So those are things, sleep saboteurs, and then you can look at sleep strategies.
But instead of drawing from Western medicine for my sleep strategies, I really look to Eastern medicine and holistic remedies, such as how can we improve sleep via natural herbs? I recommend ashwagandha, reishi mushrooms are definitely ancient herbs that we have scientific evidence that they improve sleep. And we can leverage this alongside things like optimising nutrition, there's specific nutrient groups, which if you are deficient in, for example, vitamin D, if you're deficient in magnesium, omega-3s, you will have sleep problems, because all of these nutrients are necessary for the production of melatonin, and or, the general calmness of the body as in the case of magnesium. And so I look at that perspective. But then I also include, all right, so psychologically what's going on there? What belief systems do we have around sleep? Are we saying to ourselves every day that, "Oh, I'm a bad sleeper. I've always been a bad sleeper. My parents were bad sleepers. I'm always going to be a bad sleeper." So I approach it from different lenses and appreciate that what's right for one person isn't necessarily right for another person.
However, there are overall guidelines that you can utilise from those elements. So for example, I've got a signature bedtime routine, which has for 100% of my private clients. They've all seen improvements in less than seven days when they've used it. And that process is to block out blue light before bed, at least two hours before bed, then using lavender oil capsules, which have been found in clinical studies to improve anxiety by 45... Sorry, to reduce anxiety by 45%, which was the equivalent of the anxiety reduction of a benzodiazepine, which is a sleeping pill, which reduced anxiety by 46%. Then disconnecting from tech one hour before bed. Having a shower, as this promotes melatonin production when your core body temperature drops. Then you've got using having a magnesium based sleep supplement, it your reduces anxiety 31%. Then reading a book, this focuses your mental attention into something into a specific direction, rather than just allowing it to run all over the place.
And then you've got using an eye mask, so that blocks out that light, which remember light is the number one factor to control your circadian rhythm in terms of physiological measures. So if there's one thing that you're going to do that's effective for sleep, it's reduced light and that includes during the night. So as you can see that approach, that's my recommended bedtime routine. And that appreciates a little bit of psychology, a little bit of nutrition, a little bit of holistic health, and it sort of wraps it up into one nice digestible package that, although there's seven steps, realistically when you look at that, okay, well blocking out blue light, you shut off some lights and you put some blue light glasses on that takes two seconds. Taking a lavender oil capsule or magnesium, that takes one minute. Each of those steps is really simple. And the reason why I feel like my clients and people have such great results, it's because it is simple and you can follow it every night and it's not so complicated.
And I think that when it comes to having solutions, they need to be accessible, they need to be actionable, and they need to be available to anyone. I would hate to recommend sleep solutions that are really expensive. I didn't grow up with a lot of money, so I wouldn't want to suggest something, "Okay. Yeah, you can fix your sleep, but you've got to go and pay $10,000 for something. No." All of these things that I recommend that are backed by science are really affordable and really accessible. And that's something that's really important to me because I want to not just help the people that have money, but help everyone.
You can tell. I know everyone talks about blue light, but even with that, a lot of the people are just talking about blue light, which is great. And you can see the difference there rather than chasing the next thing. It's just the same with tonic herbs, it's like, "All we can tell you is consistency, a little bit, continue to just take the herbs. Eventually you'll cultivate something because you keep on showing up year after year after year after year after year after year." Going through that list I'm like, "Yep. I think I could have generated that." And it's like, "Okay, Mason, how many times have you been really sticking to that routine?" I'm like, "Aah." I'm just like, all right, I can see having a coach, I'm like, "Yeah. Accountability of course."
Because I'm a person, I don't know if this is a lion thing, the thing is I can get away with little... If I go into my own little party mode and I start doing things at night or we in a weird situation where I'm with a five year old and with our daughter, and Tahnee is in with the baby. And so there's that going on, every now and then hearing the baby. But it's like, "Cool," it's a little bit weird and I am going into party mode and all that kind of stuff.
But if I look at it and I was coaching myself... Sorry, you've given me so much food for thought. I'm coaching myself, I'm like, "All right. Oh, I have got to do that every night? I forget this." It's like, "No, just do some, get closer, keep on honing in, keep on thinking about it." Do you have a bedtime? I'm like, "No." I'm like, "Yeah, because that scares the out of you." And just making sure, I'm like, "I just got no good books at the moment." And so I'm like, "Good, go get a bloody good book." It's like, "Shut up, stop your excuses. You've gotten into a pattern that you've moved away from this simple flow, which is in alignment with the Dao, it's aligned with what's going on outside." So I really appreciate it. And just your delivery, just like, "This is it. You know that that's going to produce the goods." I'm sure we can go down a deep, deep dive and I'm really keen to hear about which archetype has what kind of sabotaging thing that they do. But yeah, I do love it.
Thank you. I think definitely I really appreciate the sentiment and appreciate your feedback, that's very humbling. Thank you. And I think definitely you mentioned having your own flow is a bit of a lion quality and that's definitely the case. So for anyone who isn't familiar, so one of the other elements that I write about is, and they speak about is sleep archetypes or sleep types or chronotypes. Now, this can be categorised into lion, a bear or a Wolf. And essentially what this reflects is your inherent circadian rhythm preference.
Now it can easily be understood, A, if I've got a quiz that I will include in the show notes that's in my Instagram bio, that tells you, which is really fun to discover your sleep type. But, B, if you, for the sake of the podcast now, just to understand somebody with an early preference is a lion, that means that they like to wake and sleep early. Somebody with a late preference is a Wolf, those are the night owls, they like to go to bed and wake up the latest. And I mean super late, 12:00, 1:00, probably more like 1:00 and going to wake up around 8:00 at the earliest if they can.
So I thought you were saying PM, wake up 12:00 or 1:00. And I'm like, "Whoa, that's so common that it has to be one of the three?" Sorry, just in case you look at my face going, "Dude, it's not that weird."
Funny. And then you've got those that fall in the middle, which are bears, and they like to rise around 7:00 and fall asleep around 11:00. That's in its very, very basic... That's one of the facets of a chronotype, but there is so much more to it, health conditions, for example, a lion is most likely to have struggles with anxiety. A bear is most likely to have struggles with depression and fatigue, and a Wolf is most likely to have problems with insomnia. Now in terms of the actual sleep saboteur wolfs, for example, they have a biological tendency and a greater predisposition to have addictive qualities. And this is why they find switching off from technology harder than a bear or lion because neurologically they are hardwired for addiction, so asking them to switch off is not as easy than asking a lion switch off.
It also comes back to their personality. Wolves are greater risk takers. They're more unique and unconventional. So although they might think, "Yeah. Well, I know that it's 12:00 or 1:00 in the morning, but I'm really enjoying my show that I'm watching. And you know what? I know it's not so good for me in the morning, but oh, well I'm just going to do it because YOLO and that's the person I am," that's much more likely if you are a Wolf. Whereas, if you are a lion, lions are risk-averse, they do not like taking these risks, they love routine, they are health conscious, and they typically have leadership qualities. And so asking them to stay up really late with the knowledge that it's going to damage their sleep, they're much less likely to do it because of these factors.
And then you've got bears, which are our other ones and then they're a completely different kettle fish in themselves. They're very stable emotionally. They're less influenced by emotions. They are much more stable, much more easygoing, relaxed, have a stable energy. It can be a bit low at times, particularly in the afternoon, they have the worst 3:00 PM slump of all of the sleep types. And they will often reach for the caffeine to pep themselves back up because they are feeling that absolute crash in the afternoon, especially if they've had caffeine to wake them up in the morning. And then personality-wise, they are more reliable, grounded, they're more stable, that really earthy kind of individual who is just very, very hardworking, down to earth, humble, reliable, team player. Could ask them to do anything, they will happily participate and try, and so that's the bear.
So there's a lot of interesting challenges when it comes to each of the archetypes. As I just mentioned, wolves are most challenged in the evening because biologically they have the highest levels of cortisol in the late evening, so their melatonin isn't produced until much later compared to a bear or a lion. So asking them to switch off is also hard because their melatonin is lower, but also because they are more likely to take risks and also more likely to have addictive qualities. Bears, for example, their greatest challenge is overcoming that 3:00 PM slump without caffeine or stimulants because that's very typical. And then a lion, their biggest challenge is managing their anxiety, which can otherwise cause them to struggle to switch off or wake too early in the morning.
Two questions popping up for me. You mentioned coffee, first thing in the morning, maybe it's different across the three or maybe it's just general. The first in order to... I kind of quite often talk about the 24 organ cycle of the Daoism, which you've come across it. And probably the most significant thing I ever got out of it was in that 5:00 to 7:00 AM period, generally. And especially for men, only just saying as a daily thing more because women being governed by blood, there's the seasons between bleeds. But generally for everyone, up in the morning, some still practise, and then get the body moving and activate and get the yang rising. And that always struck me as it's so amazing how that thing sets me up to actually knock sleep out of the park. That's my very crude way of saying what the morning looks like, but do you focus on the morning in order to set yourself up for success? And can you take us through that routine?
Definitely. So mornings, I'm very fortunate and this is all a very lion-esque trait, we're awake in the morning, we're really awake. It's very easy for us to get up early because this is when we are most alert, and I'm a lion and I always have been a lion. And so personally I've always had morning practise of I get up, I go out for a run or a jog, then I'll practise some meditation, some gratitude, that's always just been my morning approach. And that's something that I also recommend for each of the sleep types, with slight differences though. And I think it's really important to appreciate those differences and to communicate them. So a lion, for example, because they are the most alert, getting out in the morning, doing high-intensity exercise, that's okay for a lion because their cortisol levels are high and their melatonin levels, that sleeping, is hormonal low. So they have the energy for it. So I actually encourage, sure, if that's the time you want to go for a big run or go to the gym, do a workout, go for it.
However, if you are a Wolf, for example, and you know that you struggle the most in the mornings, I would not recommend doing any time of strenuous exercise between those hours, between 5:00 and 7:00 AM, no. I'd actually recommended you get up towards the later side of when you can and utilise natural energy production from the sun. So what you want to do is go outside for at least 40 minutes, and in that time I'd recommend meditating, which is going to increase your levels of serotonin and dopamine, those calming hormones, as well as the sunshine helps your body produce serotonin, which is an awakening hormone and reduces your levels of melatonin, that's sleep in its hormone. So that's really important to start the day like that for a Wolf and then progress to something super gentle and nourishing in terms of movement, which is going to then also increase your levels of serotonin and dopamine, those happiness hormones. Something gentle like yoga or even just a gentle stretch in the sun or a gentle walk. Now that's really important to communicate because that prescription is very different from what I'd advise a lion.
A lion can go out, gung-ho, go nuts. You've got the energy for it, but a Wolf they need to really be gentle. And then similarly, not similarly, but a bear, they need to fall somewhere in the middle. So get up and if you have the energy for it, sure, a moderate workout, but if all you can manage is a brisk walk, then that's okay too. But the most important thing for any of the prototypes is to be exposed to light and to get some gentle movement at the minimum. So in terms of how long, you really want at least 20 minutes, if you are a bear or a wolf, sorry, a bear or a lion in the sunshine, but if you're a wolf, then you won at least 40 minutes.
Yeah. I like that focus on that sunbathing first thing in the morning, I've kind of caught myself there. The kids is a legitimate reason, but other than that, I do have a crazy amount of opportunity to go and get at least 30 minutes of sun on my body before I have to go to work, even if it's after gotten the kids ready to school, if I didn't get out to the gym or anything, it's just no... And every time I do it, I feel so phenomenal. Whether it's we're talking about circadian rhythm, whether it's about just our skin and everything and our eyes and just everything. Just getting that interaction with nature and getting an awareness and a sensory awareness of where we're poised on the planet, what's going on with the planet where the sun is, what's going on with the sun.
Everything just comes alive and just comes into connection. And just as a regulating force, just it's so good, too good not to do. And then go through, okay, cool. There's a couple of periods. You can't do it, whatever, you can do it one out of seven, do it one out of seven. That's always the worst thing I do. And I'm like, "All right, well fine. I'll just let it go completely. I'm too busy." It's like, "Dude, no switch on, go hunting for that one day," then make it a second day, then bump your day back a little bit, start that little smidge later. It's just so simple. How do you feel... Sorry, I'll let you talk to that and then I'll ask you about alarms.
I feel that's such a great point to make. I think a lot of us feel really overwhelmed by thinking, "Oh, I'm just not a morning person," or it's, "I'm too busy." Just start with one day, it doesn't have to be a commitment for the rest of your life, but just start with one day. And then if you can, go two days, but then if you miss a day, it doesn't mean that you've screwed up and that you're a failure and that nothing's ever going to work and that you may as well never try. And that's a real mindset thing that I think we all get into when we are trying to shift habits. And it's really important to remember that even if screw up one day, that doesn't mean that you are a screw up and that you are a failure and that you as a person shouldn't try and that it's you. It's a behaviour, it's an extension of you.
You didn't accomplish your goal on one day does not mean that you are a failure as a human. And I feel like sometimes we forget that we are not our behaviours. We think that, "I failed. Therefore, I am a failure. Therefore, as a failure, I cannot succeed in this again." And so we just resign ourselves to think, "Well, I'm just not a morning person." How many times have you heard somebody say that? But it's, well, what if that morning that wasn't your morning to be awake? That doesn't mean you're not a morning person. And I think this is really important distinction to make because a lot of bears and a lot of wolves find themselves not being morning people. And they think, "I just need to lay in bed as much as I can and get my extra rest in the morning because I'm not a morning person." And then all of a sudden, "Oh, I've got to get straight to work." Right? No, that's like the worst thing that anyone can do.
What you really want to do is A, understand that it's not being a morning person or a night person, it's just, what is your sleep type? And then honouring, "Okay, well, if I am a bear, that means that I'm going to get up slightly earlier than I can, that I was before, and I'm going to go to for a brisk walk. Or if I am a Wolf, I'm going to get up, again, slightly earlier and I'm just going to literally go and stretch in the sun and that's okay for me. And I'm okay with my lion friends or my morning people friends then going for a five kilometre run. I don't have to do that. And that doesn't mean make me a failure, that just makes me have different qualities."
Based on where your passion's coming out. I relate to, there's probably a two tier of type of person that's going to come to you. Because have been talking that there are people who are, maybe they haven't gone on their deep dive into wellness yet. And especially I can see what you're saying, you're talking about that story, "I'm not a morning person." And that I remember someone who's there, maybe that person is still really susceptible to stories and can't discern the difference between a story and reality, versus I can imagine there's a lot of people who come and do your work, maybe they're not the ones that need to go on deep dive coaching adventures with you, but they're like, "Oh yeah, cool. I can shift my mindset. I've done that work," or, "I'm that kind of person," or whatever it is.
And that's, I feel like that'll be a lot of people listening. But for you, you're are holding that place where you're like, "Come into my world. I'm going to take you on a deep dive." I remember doing personal training and they use this example and they'd be like, "I'm a..." Or they'd say, they'll be like, obviously when this was doing this as 20 and I'm getting cracked out on my personal development and cracking stories, it's so much fun. But, you're like, "I'm shy. I'm a morning person." It's like, "Show me, show me this shy. Show me what you are and show me this shy. No, I'm just shy. Are you? Show me this non-morning person." It's like, oh, hang on, there's a story, here's reality. This doesn't exist. It's got valid tones to hope it gets me leading into reality, but I can see that's the space you're holding and how that's...
It's cool because I can only imagine watching people. It's like being in personal development, watching people crack through that haze and go, "Oh my God." It's like when Harry Potter went to Hogwarts and he is like, "Oh my God, there is magic. It's not just the dull story I've been telling myself the whole time." I can get the sense of you being excited and being that space where people can go down the deep dives, which is a different between you being a specialist and someone just being a wellness educator that's just going, "Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, because if there's a story there, there's a story there, yeah that's cool.
Oh, thank you. I feel like I resonate with stories and we all have stories and I think it's really important to know that it is part of my approach is because some people come to me and they're like, "I've tried everything. I've cut out blue light, I take magnesium, I have an evening shower, I cut off from screens." And all of these things are important, and I refer to them as top line sleep supports, which is all of the things that you know you're meant to do, like blue light, magnesium, diet, having a dark bedroom, things like that.
On the list and things on the list. Tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. Yeah.
Tick, tick, tick. Right. But then underneath the top line, there's the bottom line. And it's like, what do you believe about sleep? What do you believe about feeling rested? A lot of people believe that if they feel rested, it means they haven't worked hard enough. It means that they haven't been busy enough. It means that they've indulged too much. It means that they're relaxing too much. It means they're being lazy. And if you have these thought patterns in your head, then you can move towards healthy sleep. But then all of a sudden you'll sabotage, it's either consciously or subconsciously, you'll sabotage everything what you're doing, because fundamentally you do not want to believe that you are a lazy person or that you are not working hard enough or that you aren't putting in the effort.
And so it's really interesting, when a client comes to me, initially, we'll start off, because it's a lot easier to start off, and it's a lot more comfortable for a lot of people, "Okay. What are the top line things you're doing?" And then often the next session will be like, "Okay, cool. Now let's go really deep into the bottom line." And for me, that's where the juice is, because you shift these paradigms, you shift these beliefs, and then it is just magic because you already know. A lot of the time, theses are the people that say they're doing everything, a lot of the time they actually don't need to be coached on those other elements, they're already doing them. So actually what they need the most guidance in is shifting that psyche around sleep, around their relationship to rest. And once you shift that's when they have just these instantaneous transformations and then suddenly they'll be sleeping amazing every single night.
And it's just so beautiful because like I was saying earlier, I haven't had my sleep, I haven't had sleep problems, but I've had problems with my belief system and problems with not thinking that I deserve rest or that I deserve calmness or food or anything. These have been my challenges. And so I've heard those stories before and I know how debilitating they are. And I also know how fantastic it is when you experience that shift and then suddenly you don't believe those stories anymore. And then there's a new narrative playing in your head and then you are able to just implement everything you need. If somebody shifts from believing, "I am a light sleeper," to, "I have done things that have meant that I am a light sleeper. I'm actually a good sleeper," then all of a sudden their whole world can shift. And so this is, I think, this is-
Yeah. This is the juice.
Yeah. What it gets me fired up? This stuff gets me fired up.
I was just curious when you started rattling off a couple of... Have you got a six or 10 or ballpark, the most common stories that you work with? Or for you is it a unique one every time? Of course they're going to be unique for everyone, but just curious as to your approach there.
I think a lot of people in terms of the stories and the beliefs around sleep, I think commonly it's, "I've tried everything, nothing's working. I'm a light sleeper. I've always been a bad sleeper. I can't sleep because I'm stressed. I've just got too much on at the moment." Probably they're the most common ones that I see, especially the, "I can't sleep when I'm stressed." That's a big one.
You know what? I think you're really nicely talking to a, I guess there's a trap in anything, it's just a human mind. That's a circumstance that perhaps I was overthinking and I was anxious about this. And at one point, therefore... And you can see how something goes from... Still, I'm just trying to use these words appropriately to form reality and just describe what's going on. To my identity is this invisible thing now where it becomes that story. And that's what happens too often. I talk about identity and ideology a lot and it can be as simple, it's the same deal, it's an ideology you can... And I'm sure there's ongoing practises that you... There's many things we could talk about of what people could do to ensure that they stay in a place where they're reflecting and ensuring that they're not taking on greater stories, but staying themselves.
But I mean, just for people listening, even you can just watch it happen with Daoism, waking up between 1:00 and 3:00 AM is something that happens consistently and that's liver time. "Oh, it's because my liver's this and that and I've got a liver..." And then you can see very quickly, you could go to something from that's, "Oh, that's a interesting map, an interesting insight and I could have to get an explanation of reality," verse, "I'm just a liver person and I just get this..." And I'm like, "No, no, no, no, no, take that identity mask... You're interesting enough with your bullshit sleep story, you're really interesting. That's actually a boring identity mask, you don't need to wear it." So I like that. I like that distinction there you're sitting on. Yeah, it's fun, really fun.
Thank you. I think it is interesting and I think that that's something that not a lot of people really speak about when it comes to sleep. Because I do my fair share of Googling as well, especially when it comes to the Western medicine model, they're all about, "Okay. Your room needs to be this temperature and your bedroom needs to be dark and you need to have a comfortable pillow when you need to shut off from screens." This is the approach. And I understand there's a therapy called CBTI, which is cognitive behavioural therapy for insomnia, which is, if you go to a sleep psychologist, then this is what they train you, which is essentially what behaviours are you doing that result in what outcome? So for example, being on your phone equals you're awake at night and they make that distinction and relationship.
But I feel like what's not spoken about is this stuff, which is, what do you believe around sleep? What do you believe around yourself being rested? What's your identity? Do you identify as a morning person? Do you identify as somebody who struggles to wake up in the morning? How many people say to themselves every day, "I can't function without a coffee. I'm dead to the world without a coffee." Okay. Well then sure enough, your body will respond accordingly. You will be dead to the world without a coffee. "Oh, I just can't switch off at night." All right. Well, then you cannot switch off at night. And yes, the belief is so important. And yes, it is either supported or severed by things like if you're saying that you can't switch off at night. Yeah, that's one belief, but also the impact of being on your phone, that's encouraging that inability to switch off. But it's really important to appreciate that both elements are at play.
So if you take away that blue light, but you are still telling yourself, "I just can't switch off at night," then you're going to find it pretty hard to not switch off at night because the body responds to what the brain tells it. So if you're telling yourself, "I can't switch off at night," and it's evening and you know that you need to go to bed, that's a pretty anxiety provoking situation. So if you cannot switch off at night, then your anxiety levels, your stress levels, stress hormone cortisol, that's going to increase, because you know that you need to switch off, but you can't switch off because you're telling yourself you can't switch off. So that hormone, cortisol, to make you alert and awake, that goes through roof. So you're actually telling your body what to do and so you can't switch off because you're telling yourself, "I can't switch off." Therefore, your body is responding accordingly.
Oh, you're speaking of my language. One thing you just brought up and I can imagine for me in the past why I liked having these identities, because I could just either get to play the victim or I'm just out of... It's always a victim, actually. Or it's a cry for attention. Where in the sense of what if... Whatever. You're playing with your phone or you're getting up on the first thing you're having a coffee, "Oh, I can't help it. I just can't unwind without that. I can't read at night," or, "I've got to have a coffee first in the morning." And say, "All right, cool. That's a story. How about this? You're just choosing to have a coffee feel." That's too, "Oh no, that's me. That's accountability on me." And I can feel it. I run away from accountability. I've had to build it into my life because I'm such a Peter Pan. I'll fly away and just go to Neverland.
But that's, nonetheless, when you wake up and you're like, "Well, I know it's terrible for my rhythm," or whatever, even if that's a story, "But I'm choosing to have a coffee," but at least you're in a reality and you're conscientiously choosing the thing that is screwing up your sleep so you're not a victim and you're not a story. And if you're in that place, you're way better poised to go and actually make some impact. I was just thinking about that a lot I think, because that's where I'm at a lot of the time with, I've done so much of this work, but then imagine that, oh why sometimes am I having my little sleep hiccups or why isn't it 10%, but so on and so forth. And it's like, okay cool, because I'm going to move between that.
I guess it's the yin and the yang. The yang is those things, which I've probably fallen away from. I'm so aware of the story, yet I'm just continuing to choose a couple of things that are detrimental and be like, "Yeah, I can accept that. That's good." But when the balance comes out, the yang are the predictable habits that get laid down. So the yin is the psychological, yin's chaotic and it's grassroots and it's moving in that world, it's like it's spongy and a little bit invisible. But the yang is like bedtime, make sure your magnesium's going on. And I can see right now it's where I'm deficient. I've probably excessively swim around in my psyche and transforming my stories and blah blah. I was like, "Okay dude, get out of there and get into some actual routine."
So yeah, I'm just getting that from this chat. Always nice for everyone listening, but I'm going to be selfish and say, it's nice for me. I'm like, "Yep. I'm ready." I'm feeling really inspired around my sleep. I don't feel lots of expectations. There's a good dance there, so it's not just the ticking things off the list. So yeah, it's cool. It's cool work. Sleep's pretty cool. We haven't even gone into the tripiness of sleep, we haven't even gone to the adventure you have through the night. That could maybe be another podcast, but is there anything else in jumping out of your heart or your mind or is there anything you're currently up to that you'd love to chat to with everyone about?
Yes. I will just reflect on what you just said though. I think it's really important to appreciate the yin and the yang because it needs to be a delicate dance. And as you're saying, I think if you go too yang and you go too in the boxes, it can actually stress you out because you can be so uptight about doing all the things, and then for some reason you can't do one other thing, but because you're so obsessed about, "Okay, well I have to do every single thing in my sleep routine or else I will not sleep well," and then you get obsessed about this. And so you can't swing too far that way, but also you need to have some structure. You can't just be, "Okay, I'm just going to go to bed and fingers crossed. Hopefully I sleep well." No, there needs to be some structure, but being fluid within that structure because that is life, no day is exactly the same.
And I think it's important to appreciate that although you can aim to have consistency, no day is the same. You are never exactly the same person arriving to that bedtime routine as you were yesterday, as you will be tomorrow. There is going to be things in your head that challenge you that there's going to be hurdles and challenges and that's okay. But it's just about letting go of that story, that it has to be exactly the same every single night and just following that, "Here is my general framework and I'm going to work towards doing this as a nightly practise." So I think I just wanted to touch on that because I think that was really well said and well said by you.
And I think outside of that, exciting things I'm working on, well, so I'm definitely excited about my upcoming workshops because I've been doing private clients for quite some time now, but I know that my capacity is quite limited. And I've been in some really beautiful conversations recently with many people and many platforms and I see that there's going to be, and even it's happening now, there's a lot of interest in having coaching sessions with me and having one on one personal time with me.
But at the same time, I only have so many hours in a day. So I thought it'd be great to provide a workshop experience because then people can come together and realise that A, here's some really great expert advice and B, "I'm not alone," because you're in a space where... And it's going to be hosted online, so you can be... I'm in Italy right now, you can be in Australia, Italy, France, Paris, Bali, wherever you want to be, wherever. But knowing that your problems of, "I'm a light sleeper and I wake up throughout the night," it's knowing that that's not just you and knowing that other people are challenged by that as well. And then having my guidance to solve that, I'm really, really excited about that.
Yeah. Just hearing the way that you work as well. For some reason, I'm just transported back to my, especially the personal development days when I was getting the distinction around stories for the first time. And I can imagine one of the things I always remember the reason was in a group and it was so nice, because maybe someone was willing to get up and work through their story. And if you're in a group, you get to see that person and you get to go along that transformational journey, or you're going to get things that you didn't wouldn't have got otherwise by watching someone go through that process, that's the vibe I'm getting. Oh, cool. When's that happening? Are you going to do them regularly, just in case someone's listening? Maybe someone's listening to this in 2050, and they're going to be wondering, "Hey, I want to get a little bit of this Olivia goods," and maybe you can still there replicable.
Of course. So at the moment the intention is to do them once a month, most likely on a Monday night in the first week of the month, I feel like there's just something about that just feels nice. So that's going to be a regular time and what I'm going to do is record them all, so then if you missed out, then you can play them back as part of a little membership programme that I'm creating, something like that. So I think it's really important to know that there is longevity as well. A, not everyone's going to listen to this all at the same time, but, B, I think it's beautiful to create a family where, okay, workshop one, we're going to look at your bedtime routine and then workshop two, we're going to look at, what are all the things you're doing that are limiting your sleep? What are your sleep saboteurs? Workshop three, we're going to work on sleep archetypes and understanding your patterns.
And moving through that and knowing that there's okay, cool. There's something upcoming. And it's a group experience and the people that you saw in the first one, you might see them in the second and third, I'm really excited about that. Because I know that in terms of my own growth and development, I've always loved to have those group experiences, and they're really powerful. And it's not just about the relationship you have with a coach, it's also about the relationship that you have with the others in that group. So that's something that I literally just announced it last week and I'm very excited because it's something that I've been wanting to create for a while. And that is going to lend really nicely into the development of my retreats, which are planned for next year
And I'm also excited about that.
Ah, sleep retreat. Think about that.
Holy shit. I'm going to tell everyone, just remember, I know because everyone here listening to this, I encourage you to go and jump in and do the course. But maybe we've got a lot of trippers listening, fanatical trippers. And I think just reminding everyone that this course, look around to the people in your life that have got those little stories, because there's something nice for... You can see with Olivia, you're super practical and approachable with this, but then the depths there, and so I really like that dynamic. So just think about the aunties or your parents or these kinds of people who maybe they need something that's really approachable that you want to make sure that they're going to get utterly transformed on the other side, just think about those people and send them along. And then if this is 2050, you can probably go and find it in Olivia's Italian metaverse mansion, there's probably a little course set up there and just go and enjoy that. They're probably interactive at this point.
I love it. Maybe it'll be AI technology and you can go and...
They'll be like, "Here, just insert this into your brain. That controls your neurology and your story's fixed. Yay. Now you have unwillingly signed over to Emperor Gates and Emperor Musk. They're now owned by you and you are their intellectual property, but you're sleeping well." No, you wouldn't do that to people, but what a crazy world it could be.
No. And I want to say thank you so much. I really appreciate your feedback, because I think in terms of... I like to be practical and quite specific in my directions, but at the same time, I like to be personable and not mechanical. I understand sleep, although it seems like a simple problem for a lot of people to fix. It's like, "All right, very simply just cut out blue light and take these supplements and read before bed." Yes, it's a simple process to fix, but if you are struggling with a sleep problem, if it was a simple problem to fix, then you would've fixed it already. So actually a lot of people are really ashamed about it, a lot of people have a lot of guilt about it, a lot of people feel like they're a failure of a person. There's a lot of doubt in our heart that when we can't sleep well, "Oh my God, what's wrong with me? Everyone else can do it." And there's a lot of trauma around that.
And I think that's why I like to be more personable and be more guided by my intuition and be more understanding, because it's not just simply about, "Okay, just follow this plan and you'll be fine." Actually, there's a real element of being guided and being supported in that process and uncovering all of those stories and all of those beliefs that you believe about yourself because you can't sleep properly. And that's a challenging process, because if you don't have somebody guiding you through that, then that a lot of that can come up and you can just revert back to square one. For example, you messed up your sleep routine and then so you assign yourself as a failure. You think that, "Oh, well I'm just a light sleeper and I'm just not a morning person and nothing's ever going to change. And I can't really change this aspect of my life anyway, so why should I even bother?" And all of this things and then you just stop trying.
Yeah. The spiral.
Right. But need to have a support person. You need to have a coach be like, "No, you're not a failure and you're and there's nothing wrong with you."
Well, that's like you're a coach because you're standing between say, "It's more complicated than this, but between the yin and yang and walking down a path of let's integrate it, and also for you to integrate both aspects, this duality, necessary in order for you to have a healthy sleep practise, long-term." Verse, someone who's preaching, either you can have someone preaching on the pure yin psyche side and just taking you further and further into the psyche where there's just no bloody structure whatsoever. Or the medical industry or the biohacking industry that is reductionist and they can't acknowledge the bajillion variables outside of, "Just do this," or, "It's just in your head," or, "Just do blue light." And so when you need to be coached if you're going down that path of harmonisation and integration, so it makes sense. I love it. I think many people in this community will be utilising all your beautiful offerings. Now you're in Italy, how do you pronounce your last name? Arezzolo, how do we nail it?
Arezzolo. Okay. Beautiful.
[foreign language 01:11:14] Olivia Arezzolo. [foreign language 01:11:32].
And follow, all the links are down there. Definitely do Instagram, jump over the website, jump over onto mailing lists, all the stuff, gang. Sleep well, sleep well, drop your stories. You can do it. Don't do the blue light thing. Actually, just don't do blue light, take magnesium and all your problems are solved. I think that's what I've taken out of this. Joking. All right. Thank you so much. And yeah, I'm sure everyone really appreciated your time and I'll look forward to seeing you next time.
Thank you so much, Mason, it's been so beautiful to connect with you and share this space. And definitely, I would love to hear from anyone in your community. We connected on Instagram and Instagram's probably my favourite place to play. So if you type in sleep expert, I'm usually one of the first ones that pops up or you can try and type in my last name or just use the show notes, anyway you go. But yeah, no, it's so beautiful to connect with you, but also it'd be so beautiful to hear from your community. And if anyone's listening to this and this has really resonated, I'd love to hear from you directly, just pop me a DM and I'd love to just hear the impact that this has on you. Because that's why, I'm sure Mason, you agree, that's why we do these, to have a great impact. So when we know that we have had a great impact, it really makes our day. So thank you, Mason, for your energy and space today. And I'm very excited for all what's to come and hearing from your community.
Beautiful. Well, look forward to sleep tonight and catch you next time.