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The World of Ayurvedic Cleansing with Wayne Celeban (EP#95)

Enter the mindful world of Ayurvedic Medicine as Mason and Ayurvedic practitioner/teacher Wayne Celeban go deep into the holistic layers of Ayurvedic cleansing; A revered ancient system with a unique and gentle approach.


Enter the mindful world of Ayurvedic Medicine as Mason and Ayurvedic practitioner/teacher, Wayne Celeban, go deep into the holistic layers of Ayurvedic cleansing; a revered ancient system with a unique and gentle approach. With a focus on the importance of springtime cleansing, the undeniable health benefits of being in flow with the seasons, and the sophisticated system of Ayurvedic cleansing, Wayne takes us on a complete journey into bringing the body back to a state of balance and optimal health.

''In Ayurveda, everything can be used as medicine. Everything is potential medicine, but everything is also a potential poison. It means the right application is key". - Wayne Celeban


Mason and Wayne discuss:

  • The importance of adaptability in business, personal life, health, and how the season's interplay with these aspects.
  • Getting into the flow of the intent and energy of different seasons.
  • The value of gearing rituals, ceremonies, and celebrations to seasonal changes; How this aspect alone can bring us closer to nature, connect us with the foods that grow seasonally, and build our understanding of the kinds of foods to prepare.
  • The importance of cleansing in spring as a necessary means of supporting that natural elimination process and bolstering our health.
  • The concept of Panchakarma; the five actions of elimination used in Ayurvedic cleansing (Nasal administration, Vamana, Virechana, Basti, and Rakta Moksha).
  • Addressing cellular health and cleansing tissues at a deeper level to ensure that channels of elimination are working optimally when cleansing.
  • The importance of membrane health, gut biodiversity & microbiome health.
  • Enema therapy within Ayurvedic medicine; looking at the large bowel as a route for administering medicine, the relationship it has with the nervous system, mind & endocrine system.
  • The Ayurvedic diet, what it provides, and the role of specific food preparations for vitality and maximum nourishment.
  • Medicated ghee and its vital role in Ayurvedic cleansing. 
  • Herbal Steam Therapy to support cleansing; the positive effects it has on dopamine/serotonin levels and how it regulates the nervous system.
  • The importance of cleansing to keep the sense organs healthy and functioning, as ultimately all the things that we love in this life, we experience and perceive through our sense organs. 


Who is Wayne Celeban?

Wayne Celeban is a Naturopath and Ayurvedic practitioner with over 18 years experience in clinical practice. 

Wayne has studied in numerous Ayurvedic clinics and hospitals in India including JSS Ayurvedic University, Mysore. In 2012 Wayne was accepted into the SDM Ayurvedic Hospital and College post-graduate internship program in Hassan, India where he continues his clinical training.

To achieve successful outcomes for his clients, Wayne combines the 5000-year-old traditions of Ayurveda and Yoga philosophy with western medical science and nutritional medicine.

Wayne's experience and knowledge is evident in his professional practice and dedication in developing practical and effective health care programs to support his patients in becoming the best version of themselves emotionally​, mentally and physically.



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Wayne's personal Instagram


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Check Out The Transcript Here:


Mason: (00:04)

Hey, Wayne. Thanks again for coming on, man.


Wayne: (00:06)

You're very welcome. Nice to see you again.


Mason: (00:09)

Yeah, nice to see you again as well. At least we get to have the... at least we've got the podcast there to keep us catching up and we've always got to...


Wayne: (00:17)



Mason: (00:17)

...leave a bit of space for us to catch up before we jump on the phone.


Wayne: (00:23)

Yeah, definitely.


Mason: (00:25)

And hearing about how you guys have made some beautiful adjustments to your business and life during the whole lockdown period. And sounds like you've really, just from everything you were saying, it's all about adaptability and seems like it's a real, you're seeing a lot of reward coming from the internal work that's been done for years and years. When something so huge happens to the world, to your business, you had a retail shop, you got... You guys are practitioners and yet you're able to adjust and come through in a place. You've seem way more expressed and at ease, probably compared to when I met you like two years ago, when we went and sat on the beach up the South of Noosa and that's after a huge pandemic, I always just find that it's always proof's in the pudding there, so good on you and your fam man...


Wayne: (01:21)

Yeah, thank you.


Mason: (01:22)

... for knocking that out of the park.


Wayne: (01:22)

Yeah. Well, it's largely about adaptability, isn't it, it's adjusting to situations and trying to find the best out of whatever presents, I guess.


Mason: (01:32)

Well, and I guess a lot of the practise comes to the slight adjustments and being adaptable in the seasonality. Quite often in the West, we let seasons happen to us, but can we get into the flow of the intent and energy of a different season. I find that is a micro exercise that when the huge changes happen, you've got, you've been strengthening yourself so much because you've been constantly lifting weights of adaptation through the season. But I'm really interested to hear about how your unique perspective through the lens of all your years as an Ayurvedic practitioner and student and teacher, how, what it is we do in spring. I like that Ayurveda has a big focus on cleansing. I came from the raw food world. We were all cleansing. I was all big salt water flushes back in the day. So yeah, I'd love to hear your... What does spring represent for you? What is it that you start getting up to around this time?


Wayne: (02:42)

Yeah. In Ayurveda spring is considered as the King of seasons especially for cleansing. So we've just come through winter. So during early and late winter, our digestive systems become stronger, our metabolic activity becomes heightened. So we're needing to increase our energy to regulate our temperature. So as it gets colder, we need to generate more energy to stay warm and maintain that homeostatic balance. And what that reflects is that our digestive system becomes stronger because we need to be consuming more energy in order to maintain those extra layers of fat that create that nice insulation for our bodies.


Wayne: (03:35)

Early and late winter are my favourite seasons, because basically this is when we get to eat more food and we can get away with eating more food as well. So if you have a look at your shopping bill, you usually spend more money during winter and you're having more heartier foods and more bulky foods and tastier foods and your appetite's just good. So you just naturally enjoying eating food. It's a wonderful, wonderful time of the year. I think we should have Christmas in the middle of winter because it's a good time to just sit around and eat-


Mason: (04:09)

That's my theory as well, 100%.


Wayne: (04:12)

...yeah, it's conducive to good health.


Mason: (04:15)

Well, it was in the middle of winter [crosstalk 00:04:17]. Wasn't it in the North ?


Wayne: (04:19)

Yes, exactly. I think we should change it. I think it needs... I think if we started to gear our rituals and ceremonies and celebrations to seasonal changes, I think it would just work better. And I think it would bring more attention to what's actually happening outside. We'd be getting in touch with when food's growing, what food's growing, what sort of foods to prepare. We go for those traditional foods that we have during Christmas, the baked potatoes and the roasts and all of that, the fermented foods, but they're actually more suited for the middle of winter. They're the things that we should be eating at that time. So the winter seasons in Ayurveda are considered as strengthening times of the year. So if we look at the whole four or six seasons, however you look at it, we've got more of a six seasonal thing up on the sunshine coast. We have that kind of rain season that comes in as well. So yeah-


Mason: (05:25)

That's the same thing we are as well, Mob had six seasons.


Wayne: (05:28)



Mason: (05:28)

Yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative)


Wayne: (05:29)

Yeah. So that's... And that's real, we might cover that a little bit later in the talk, the importance of managing the detrimental effects of rain season and high humidity periods, because this is generally when our immune systems and our bodies are at their weakest. So what we're doing during winter is we're getting the body as robust and as strong as possible. So when the sun starts to make its way back to the Southern hemisphere, we start basically going into stages of depletion. So during the summer, this is where the body's at the weakest. So generally you are more inclined to eating salads, light foods, fruits, you don't really feel like eating too much and you generally don't need to eat that much, but just in that transitional phase, you've got the spring season where all of that accumulation.


Wayne: (06:21)

So when you're eating more food, you producing more metabolic byproducts. So basically your output increases, your waste load increases because you are just churning up more energy. And so in the spring season, all of that, as the body starts to dilate, as the temperature starts to warm, you get a lot of accumulation moving from the deeper tissues of the body back to the superficial tissues. So we're accumulating muscle fat, bone, marrow. All of these tissues are getting really well-nourished and then, and also a little bit more contracted. So as, when the body's cold, it'll actually constrict. So the circulation's probably not as efficient during the winter, as it is coming into the hotter months where your body's trying to move, push more heat towards the peripheries. So it's kind of like the river Ganges when the ice starts to melt and you get these larger river systems that start increasing the amount of water that's moving downstream.


Wayne: (07:34)

But as that ice starts to melt, you get all the debris that's been building up on the banks of the river. So what we're doing during the spring is, we want to collect as much of that debris as possible and bring it out to the areas where we can expel it from the system. So this is where a lot of people notice that they're more susceptible to seasonal rhinitis and hay fever and sinusitis and chest infections, because we're getting a lot of that excess gunk moving back to these channels of elimination. So the upper respiratory tract, also the digestive system and the large bowel.


Wayne: (08:17)

So if we're cleansing that we're supporting that natural elimination process, we actually bolster our health. So this is why spring is such an important, spring and autumn are the transitional pivotal times of the year where we're either prepping for the time where we're most depleted or we're prepping for the time where we really have to nourish our systems. So when I'm seeing patients during winter, unless it's absolutely necessary, unless there's a disease condition that needs to be treated and can't wait until spring. I want to get those patients as strong and robust as possible because whatever they develop and whatever they accumulate in terms of their body strength, that's what's going to tie them through during summer and then into that rainy season. So if you're cleansing during winter, chances are, come January, February, you're going to experience greater states of depletion and compromised immunity


Mason: (09:21)

So straight up when you get into that spring system, where are you at with your patients and for yourself, I'm sure it's varied. But in terms of, are you at a point where you are still liking, have you got a thorough cleansing routine, intense cleanses every now and then, or you were saying before we jumped on, you were saying how you've been getting up and gone bush for the night and doing lots of meditation and breath practise. Is it just for you at this point, you know sticking to your bread and butter practises as the weather warms up and allowing that to naturally open up your detox channels, or are you then enjoying going deeper and doing some nice deep removal of debris?


Wayne: (10:06)

Yeah. Look, I think for Ayurvedic practitioners that practised traditional cleansing methods, this is the season where our clinical practise comes alive because Ayurveda has this beautiful system of cleansing. It's very sophisticated, very well established. It's been practised, these traditions go back 3000 years, at least the classical texts that I use as references they're, they describe in these texts, ancient systems of Ayurvedic medicine. But these books were written two and a half thousand years ago. So the system goes way back, maybe 5,000 years, who knows, but there's a concept in Ayurveda known as Panchakarma. So "Pancha", means five and "Karma", means to action. So there's five actions of eliminations. So when we've got all of this gunk that's starting to move out of the system.


Wayne: (11:13)

We want to expel it from the body as efficiently as possible. So there's five main methods that we actually move what's called excess doshas or excess dry, cold, light, rough qualities, or excess acidity or sharp qualities that might lead to inflammation, burning and overproduction, like overstimulated metabolic systems, or just sluggish, dull, sticky, slothy stuff that is just building up that can't build the tissue or can't build waste product. So the way that we expel that from the body is we use the nasal cavity. So this is a really efficient way to move those excess Doshas from areas that are above the clavicle. And we use what's called Vamana, which is Emesis. So we... If there's, the patient's got more Dosha or gunk accumulation in the upper regions of the body, we want to expel it through the mouth because it's just the most efficient way to get rid of that excess.


Wayne: (12:22)

And there is Virechana, which is a purgative treatment. So basically we're flushing out the lower portions of the stomach all the way through the small intestines, that whole abdominal cavity and we're moving it down and outwards. So that's just really strong bowel motions for a period. And then when we have what's called Basti, so this is the area where we use Enema therapies. So I might go into that a little bit later too, because there's a strong trend with using coffee enemas, water enemas. Whereas with Ayurvedic Enema therapy, we use a combination of medicated oils to prep, lubricate, support, protect the bowel. And then we will then follow that up with decoction enemas, which are specifically developed for the patient, their body type, time of year, age, season, all that kind of stuff.


Wayne: (13:23)

We use salt. We use honey. We use other medicated oil that is emulsified into that. So what we're doing is there's a really strong emphasis with over cleansing that we don't stress the tissues. We don't put the tissues in a state of discomfort or discord or aggravation. So every time, every cleansing method is propping, supporting and lubricating the tissues. So we get this really nice process of eliminating gunk, but we don't cause stress. So it's possible that when we are just using water for Enema therapies, that we're not taking into consideration of microbiome, we're not looking at electrolyte balancing in the large bowel. We're not looking at specifically what qualities need to be rebalanced and supported. And we're not looking at the actual organ itself and making sure that it's actually, it's well-supported so we can start doing these cleansing eliminations.


Wayne: (14:26)

So generally what you do is you do an oil enema and then you'll do the decoction the following day and oil decoction. So we always start with oil. We always end with oil. So that's the fourth one. And the fifth one is known as Rakta Moksha. So Rakta Moksha translates as bloodletting. So traditionally in Ayurveda we were using leeches and incisions to remove excess gunk and morbid qualities that impair the proper functioning of the tissues through just allowing the blood to move and those toxins to move straight out. So leeches are commonly used in Ayurvedic hospitals in India. So the last time I was there, I got to learn how to apply leeches and to treat during that way using those methods, I don't use them in the clinic here. I'm not even sure whether it's legal to use leeches.


Mason: (15:23)

I think it is. I've got a friend who gets calls every now and then from the emergency room asking for him to bring in leeches. He said into mainstream hospitals, but they just don't advertise it obviously.


Wayne: (15:37)

Yeah, they're fantastic cleansers. Just spending time in the hospital where I do my internship training, the results, even just with pain relief, like osteoarthritis and really severe sort of inflammatory conditions in the joints. And these, if we were, we'd be using really strong anti-inflammatories that are having severe, well not severe, but they're having some sort of detrimental effects on liver function and other organ systems. Whereas using these leeches locally, they're reducing all the inflammation. Some patients I was watching, coming in wheelchairs and heading out just walking, complete pain relief. It's fantastic.


Wayne: (16:28)

So yeah, that's the fifth one, the ones that I use mainly in this clinic here are the Enema therapies, the nasal administration and the Virechana. I will use the vomiting mode of elimination, but I'm very careful with the patients that I select for that. So I want to make sure that they're quite strong, robust, so yeah. Augation is probably the safest and most effective because we can move excess doshas and excess gunk from the upper regions of the body and the lower regions through that purging process.


Mason: (17:08)

And everyone's a bit used to it.


Wayne: (17:12)

Yeah. And it's just easier, having somebody killed over a bucket, vomiting milk and salt, licorice decoction is, can be pretty intense, but having somebody sitting on the toilet for four to six-seven hours on a Saturday morning is much more palatable.


Mason: (17:31)

But he kind of gets it over and done with it. Doesn't it, if you're drinking the milk, the licorice. I mean that's what I-


Wayne: (17:42)



Mason: (17:43)

Yeah, I do appreciate just the gentle approach that Ayurveda always has. In the scenes that I was running in when we were so hardcore into our catabolic lifestyle, you know always itching about a feeling of another parasite in us and needing to get of this impurity and this impurity... It was very healthy, very healthy psychologically, always.


Wayne: (18:09)

It's that Northern Rivers environment. It's that subtropical environment, you know there's some nasty bugs and up here and down where you are, [inaudible 00:18:18] but these are things that they get in it, and they're nasty. They're very stubborn things to get rid of.


Mason: (18:27)

Yeah but as you said, though, when that, there's a season for it, and when that cleansing mentality kind of takes over your mindset and gets a little far in the Ayurvedic approach was, always a... It always started to buffer everyone in that, like I could see people getting attracted into that system and all of a sudden gaining some kind of responsibility and even using oils rather than friends that did like a 100 days straight of doing coffee enemas. Well, that was a 100 days straight of mushrooms and coffee. So it was a different journey that they were on...


Wayne: (19:02)

Interesting journey.


Mason: (19:04)

...yeah that's an interesting journey but nonetheless, it's, I just think about coffee. I just think about what happens when I just pour coffee onto my skin, I don't particularly enjoy it. And we're just, the constant pouring of coffee onto the membrane within the colon. Ayurveda coming through with this medicinal oil intent and the decoction intent always took it to, it always took it to another level. I kind of lost my trust a little bit in Enema therapy and even colonics to an extent.


Wayne: (19:37)

Yeah. So just using coffee for an example, in Ayurveda everything can be used as medicine. Everything is potential medicine, but everything is also potential poison. It means the right application is key. So if we were looking, if I was to consider using coffee in enema therapy, I'd be looking at the qualities that are presenting in the patient that need to be rebalanced and I'd be looking at, or what qualities are inherent within that coffee bean that I can actually use effectively. So if I look at qualitative effects of coffee, it is sharp. It is penetrating, it is also having stringent and bitter qualities. So I know that it's going to have a drying effect, and I know that it's going to have a stimulating effect. So if I was looking at a patient that would fit that, that would do well on a medicine like that, I would probably be looking at a bowel that is quite congested, quite sluggish.


Wayne: (20:42)

I know that there's anti-microbial, anti-bacterial activities in there as well. So you know if there was some sort of dysbiosis playing out and there was congestion, if their stool was sluggish slimy, and they weren't having sort of good timely bowel eliminations or their transit time was a little bit slow, then I would implement that substance. But I would use it in conjunction with other medicines and substances that are also going to support the inherent qualities of the large bowel. So I could get a good cleansing effect from that. And that would be really effective. And then I could sort of back it up with supporting and nourishing and then introducing different medicines that are actually going to start fixing that transit time, working on the nervous system, introducing the right nutritional practises, the right lifestyle practises and things like that.


Wayne: (21:39)

It's looking at what's presenting what needs to be done. Whereas what I do notice these days is you've got some people that are doing coffee enemas and their system is already dry, they're already in flames, they're already you know sort of prone to losing weight or being in a state of deficiency. And then they're introducing a substance that is actually going to compound on that deficiency and then further dry the bowel out. And then you've got more complications of constipation that might follow that up. And then if you get banked up and then you think maybe I need to go and have some more enema treatments and you further compound. You're actually moving in the other direction. You need to apply the opposite qualities to bring them about that harmony within the organ, and then introduce the substances that are actually going to start building and strengthening.


Mason: (22:30)

Do you just offer your enemas specific to a patient in clinic, or do you have places where you educate, for people who are maybe not in New South Wales, and are looking to learn how to get a little bit more intention, the way that they're providing their own home enemas?


Wayne: (22:47)

Yeah. We can offer that through ZOOM consultations. So what I would do if somebody was interested in doing an enema treatment, we would go through, we'd do a full case study. So we'd be looking at their body type, looking at their age, looking at their presenting symptoms, all of these sorts of things are going to play into providing information of the nature of that digestive system. So in Ayurveda we're looking at the mind, we're looking at the central nervous system, we're looking at that whole vagus nerve access and the qualities of the digestive system. So understanding somebody's mental tendencies is going to tell me a lot about what their digestive tendencies are. So if it's irregular, if it's prone to, you know if the endocrine system, the homeostatic balances is out there and there's sleep issues, or there's hormonal imbalances or reproductive menstrual issues, that's still going to give me a lot of information as to what the large intestines and the qualities of the large intestine are presenting.


Wayne: (24:03)

So I will incorporate those... that information into establishing or what's the best means to bring this body back into balance. So in [crosstalk 00:24:16] one of the classical Ayurvedic texts, he says that the majority of diseases can be treated through enema therapy. The large bowel is a fantastic route for administering medicine, just with the absorption, with the relationship that the large bowel has with the nervous system, the mind, the endocrine system.


Mason: (24:35)

Well I think what you're...Sorry.


Wayne: (24:37)

It's just that the ... You need to implement the right qualities to bring about that balance.


Mason: (24:41)

Yeah. Well, I mean just the awareness around the membrane health. I see that this style of cleansing, so much cleansing, if you'll see say if we're talking to someone who's in, whether they're in Western medicine or more likely in a naturopathic field, and they're getting into a place where they say doing a test, a microbiome tests or they're testing the biodiversity that's within the large intestine, they're the ones that are going to start sounding the alarm for people just constantly going in and doing enemas and doing coffee enemas. So then we have a dichotomy there. And so quite often that's going to create this inner conflict in people that they want to cleanse. But oh hang on, the data is actually showing that I'm lowering the diversity of my bacteria by doing this.


Mason: (25:35)

So this conversations I was so keen to keep on going down this is because that butting of heads between those two kinds of principles like testing, and Microbiome health, and Biodiversity, and not doing anything to jeopardise that colony, yet the desire to get in there and support the systems in our body in a way that's integrated. And then this Ayurvedic and this enema model, it creates such a beautiful bridging I think in an appeasing of... People are wanting to take something which can be seemingly conflicting inside of themselves yet come to a place where you can have your cake and eat it too.


Mason: (26:18)

Awareness of the membrane, awareness of protecting the home, the tissue walls and what you said there, which I think is something that a lot of people... I could have probably used hearing eight years ago when I was into this, Is that the impact of the tissue, I can't remember the words, but you were saying, you can sit up the impact or, how much you're going to, like how much you're going to hit or stress. The tissue of the body


Wayne: (26:46)

Health is a fine line between keeping the channels clear, and maximising communication pathways. So, the body is made up of channels. It's how the body communicates with itself. So we want to make sure that we're using these cleansing procedures to support maximum communication and clear pathways of moving things from one place to another. And then we need to back it up with nourishment and stability, stabilising tissues. So cleansing without strengthening is never going to give you maximum results. You know you have to... the objective is to have a strong body, it is to have good mental stability and sturdiness, and these strong tissues are going to reflect a good immune system. And if the Immune system is strong well, then it's going to support a good quality Microbiome, because the bugs are essentially only going to inhabit an environment that is healthy.


Wayne: (27:59)

It's like, less people are going to go live in a desert then, on a coastline because the environment's just, more appealing, you've got good weather, you've got good rainfall, you've got, good quality air. Whereas if those bugs aren't living in an environment that is conducive of what their needs are, they're gonna leave. So we can keep continuing to look at what the diversity is, or we can start looking at well, what is going to encourage a good, healthy, diverse range of good quality bugs that are going to have this beautiful symbiotic relationship with supporting our tissues, supporting our cognitive function. So, they're going to be more inclined to living in a strong environment. So, I think that's like the emphasis that we need to bring into cleansing is the importance of the off season.


Wayne: (28:56)

The off season is key and you need to have good regular off season. Winter gets strong, clean out the excess, and then your tissues are just robust. Whereas if we're kind of like every time we feel imbalanced, we just consider, or we just have to go towards cleansing. If that's the key word that keeps coming up, because that's pretty much what happens if you Google search something that you're suffering from, you're going to find "I gotta do a cleanse". You do a cleanse once, and then three weeks later, you do another cleanse, and then two weeks later you do another cleanse, and then six weeks later, you do another cleanse. You're actually creating destabilising environments. And I just don't think that it works that well.


Wayne: (29:42)

I think if you've got a regular routine... Like Everything in Ayurveda comes back to regular routine, everything that is... everything that reflects balance and harmony in nature is governed by a regular team. If the rout... If natural routines go out of balance, this is when we get floods, we get intense bushfires, we get some tsunamis. It's all about that balance, strong, seasons where everything grows and is nourished, and then you have a dry season, which is a good time to clear stuff out.


Mason: (30:15)

Yeah. What are you doing dietarily at the moment?


Wayne: (30:21)

At the moment, This is a good time to be staying off heavier foods because just coming back to that, talking about the rivers starting to swell, and the ice starting to melt, we wanted to clear those pathways as much as possible. At the moment, like I've got a bunch of people that are going through panchakarma at the moment, and their diets primarily, strong liquid diet, lots of vegetables, lots of steamed vegetables. So even when we're looking at food, it's not enough just to consider that a broccoli is going to be sufficient based on its nutrient content. We need to actually prepare and manipulate the quality of that broccoli, so it's easily digestible, so it still maintains like maximum nourishment, nutrient composition, but it is supporting the vitality itself.


Wayne: (31:19)

The way that we were doing that in the cleansers that you just lightly steam the broccoli, so it just starts to perspire and it kind of becomes a little less brittle. So you're still getting that rich chlorophyll kind of colour that comes out. So when the broccoli's steamed correctly, it actually becomes brighter. And actually it's almost like it's starting to come alive. So, you would take that, you'd have it with a little bit of olive oil, a little salt, a little bit of pepper just to stimulate digestive function. So you get better absorption of that food. So we kind of... we have different broths. We use Kicherie in Ayurveda traditionally for cleansing which is a Mung Dahl and it's combined with Basmati rice. So when you combine those two food groups, you'd get the complete amino acid profile.


Wayne: (32:14)

So you're still getting everything that your body needs. You know If we look at an Ayurveic diet during these cleanses, we're getting carbohydrates, we're getting a really good range of fats, we're getting proteins, we're getting a lot of... Plenty of fibre through the vegetables and, we're getting a lot of minerals as well. So, everything's there, it's just presented in a way where the body can still let go and it's not having to... we're just creating, especially these days, A lot of my patients will probably, I'd say 95% of them, they're still working, they still have children. We've got to sort of manage that practicality where we just don't have a setting where they can just be in a retreat type environment and just relax and have everything done for them. So I need to make sure that my patients are still strong and they're still able to go about their responsibilities. So it's finding that kind of sweet spot where we're getting the job done, but we're not putting the body into a state of depletion.


Mason: (33:19)

Do you keep them vegetarian during that time as well? [crosstalk 00:33:23]


Wayne: (33:22)

Yeah generally. Some patients, I might consider say chicken broth because it's still very easily digestible. Especially if there's a bit more depletion, if the patient is prone to weakness or what we would call a Vata dominance, or if there's a Vata aggravation, we might, you use that as a... Just to, prop up and to provide extra nourishment, but it still enables the body to let go and cleanse all the excess gunk. There's actually... Well, are you happy for me to talk about how just the whole procedure of Panchakarma, because what we've discussed is, the five...


Mason: (34:04)

Absolutely, and we've got 11:11 right now, down here in New South Wales. So we're numerological giving you the thumbs up.


Wayne: (34:11)

Well, I've got 10:11. And what does that mean?


Mason: (34:15)

Well, that's why I added in the New South Wales. So maybe the Queenslander don't wanna Want to hear about it, but the New South Walsh men and women do.


Wayne: (34:21)

All right, well, I'm happy to share.


Mason: (34:24)

Yeah, super happy to hear about that process.


Wayne: (34:28)

Right? Because this is a really unique... these concepts are really unique to Ayurveda and it's... I think it's really important for people just to at least entertain what's potentially involved in proper cleansing and the extent of cleansing because we do a lot of juice fasts. We do a lot of enema things in the West and I see from my Ayurvedic background, I see gaps, I see areas where we could actually be making much... Providing much more effective cleansing programmes. So we only have to do it once or twice a year. So the way that....


Mason: (35:07)

Do you want to throw in the other ones? I'm going to throw in liver cleansing is another one, the incredible liver gallbladder cleanse that's another one that happens big time. The... what I used to do the yogic, well, I can't remember the name, but that saltwater cleanse and get up at five in the morning.


Wayne: (35:34)

Yeah. What was that called? Shankha prakshalana


Mason: (35:35)

Yeah something like that, I've got it there from when I did my teacher training. Five litres of basically brine warm salty water. So I'm throwing that down, I'm throwing that up, I'm doing my five movements. I'm doing my Crow, my cobra, I'm doing my spins, doing that. Then it's all coming out of my bum and then doing the Neti pot, that's another kind of like hardcore approach I think.


Wayne: (35:58)

These are the Yogic Kriyas, the Yogic cleansing procedures. But what we have to consider also is if we're looking at the context in which those procedures were used. Generally these yogis, they had very simplified living situations. There's a lot of Asana practise, a lot of meditation, karma yoga, a little bit of karma yoga in there. Probably not a great deal, but you know, a lot of inward introspective activity. And the Kriya's aren't... From an Ayurvedic perspective, I would say that the Kriya's are more geared around cleansing the elementary tract. So these types of cleanses are going to like remove a lot of debris and gunk that has accumulated in the digestive system, but it's not going to be efficient enough to get into the actual tissue systems. And these are the areas that we're not so much getting into.


Wayne: (37:06)

If you're doing liver cleansing and bile flushes, I think these are fantastic things to adopt, Because what we do in Ayurveda is we'll divide the body into two different parts. SO we've got, what's called Koshta and what's called Shaka. So Koshta is the abdominal cavity and all the organs that inhabit that space, and also the pleural cavity and the pelvic cavity. So when we're doing liver cleansing, we're kind of cleansing those regions more. So, that we'll get into the blood, we'll probably get a good sort of effective plasma and blood cleansing activity, but really, I think you'd have to do those liver cleansing herbs for at least four to six weeks. You want to be exposing the liver and the blood to those substances for long enough for the liver to completely renew and reproduce itself. So if you've got that, four to six weeks exposure, you're probably going to have a really healthy liver after that period of time.


Mason: (38:18)

Normally just looking at like these, what we do in the West, we're looking for a wham, bam, thank you. Ma'am, we're doing something potentially beneficial in excess, maybe not, but what we are talking or going into now is that balancing out when we are actually going deeper into the tissue.


Wayne: (38:34)

We've got to have an effective cleansing. We need to get into the cells, we need to get into the muscle, the fat, the marrow, the bile. These cleansing... I'm not putting these cleansing techniques down. There's definitely an important space for them. And I think everything needs to become... Needs to be practical. Taking a liver cleanse for six weeks and then maybe doing Bile flush with magnesium salts, and citric acid, grapefruit juice. That's going to be really effective, but if we're looking at maintaining and supporting the communication of deeper tissue systems, we need to start looking at kind of more sophisticated processes that really get into those areas. So what we do with the Ayurvedic cleansing is, there's preliminary treatment. And then there is the main treatment, which is the expulsion of the gunk either through the bottom end, top end through the nasal cavity or through the bloodstream.


Wayne: (39:40)

Then there's the post-treatment. So we want to carefully prep the body for that kind of intense elimination process. And then we want to follow that up with supporting and re-establishing good digestive function afterwards. So the way that that looks is that initially for say three to five days, depending on the patient, and their present health, and what they're presenting with is we will introduce specific medicines, and diet, and lifestyle activities that are going to start eliminating the... I guess you could say the superficial Gunk that is accumulated in the pipes. So every time you digest food, you're potentially going to... you break down substances into absorbable nutrients and you separate the waste product that then gets moved down into the large bowel. But sometimes if you're eatings a little bit of irregular, or if your digestion is weak or you're a little bit stressed when you're eating, you might produce a by-product, which is not suitable for building tissue, but it's not suitable for creating a good quality bowel motion or good quality stool.


Wayne: (40:53)

So we call this Ama in Ayurveda and it's largely interpreted as toxin, but it's not really a toxin, it's just gunk. That's just like a by-product of separating through chemical activity. So this gunk will accumulate and it's going to start lining the digestive wall. And this is where we start getting probably potentially dysbiotic sort of environments, where we get more aerobic bacteria starting to generate the digestive system. So these are the kind of like early signs of a digestive system starting to kind of turn sour and away. You'll notice that if you have a look at your tongue first thing in the morning, so you might notice that it can be like a white coating, a yellowish coating, excess saliva. Basically what you're looking at is kind of gunk under or Ama that's accumulated, but we can't build tissue with that substance and it's not making a good quality waste product and it's breeding bacteria essentially.


Wayne: (42:03)

So we wanna... The word is Ama Pachana which means to digest and cook or ripen this gunk. So we want to loosen that from the, you know, the whole, whole intestinal wall from the, from the mouth all the way down to the anus and get that digestive system functioning really well. So we want to stimulate that digestive fire and all those enzymes and acids so they're really strong and working efficiently. So we, we introduce a lot of the time I'll use, what's called a [inaudible 00:42:36] which is a herbal paste. It's a... it's herbs that have been cooked for long periods of time, decocted mixed with jaggery and honey, and a little bit of ghee. And then we'll take that, and I'll administer that three times a day before food and just start getting that digestive system really strong, because if we need to get herb's in to start really addressing cellular health and cleansing tissues at a deeper level, we need to sure that the channel of elimination is working very efficient, but we also want to maximise the absorption of these drugs.


Wayne: (43:16)

So they're getting to where they need to act. So, if you've got a gunky digestive system and you want to do a tissue cleanse, or you're potentially limiting to like the amount of the potential for that substance to get to where it needs to go. So we want to clear that area out to begin with.


Wayne: (43:36)

So once we get that done, the second part of the preliminary treatment is called [inaudible 00:19:44], which is the internal oleation. So this is where we start introducing a medicated ghee. So there's loads of different formulations where drugs are infused into a clarified butter, and you know Ayurveda is very big on the clarified butter. Nutritionally, It's very good for you, but one of the key reasons why we're so big on ghee is because it has this really amazing capacity to imbibe the constituents of whatever substance it's mixed with.


Wayne: (44:24)

So if, if I combine a group of herbs that I want to use to address the nervous system, or address the skin, or address the fat tissue, I can insert those drugs through these preparations, infuse them into that fat and a likelihood of those Herb's getting to where I want them to act is going to be much more efficient. So what I do is with the cleansing is we introduce about 30 mls of this medicated fat on the first day, and we have a very light diet. So your body is almost going into a ketogenic state. Where you start increasing the fatty acid load over a period of time. So we introduced 30 mls on the first day, and we just observe to see how well that digests and if all goes well, it's not sort of sitting there, there aren't ghee burps three or four hours later, and this will be determined by the previous treatment.


Wayne: (45:24)

If I get the digestive system functioning really well, the gee's going to digest very well. So the next day I'll introduce 60 ml the next day, 90 ml, possibly up to one 120 ml. Basically we keep going until the body becomes completely saturated in this medicated fat.


Mason: (45:42)

Just straight down the gob.


Wayne: (45:44)

Yeah, it's the hardest part of the cleanse, especially when you're getting into the higher, you know the one 120 ml but you have it as hot as you can take it and then you can just follow it with a little bit of ginger tea and that sort of clears the palate and helps it digest.


Mason: (46:02)

Yeah that's okay. I'll have to chat to you later. I've got two things, smells that nearly make me vomit on, cue. Canned tuna from a kid, and ghee and I've just recently been able to say to myself now I'm going to overcome that one because ghee is not something I wish to have that aversion to. Maybe I can chat to you about it later because I'd like to partake and I think that maybe that would be my initiation back into being able to palette ghee, especially having it warm with a bit of ginger tea afterwards that might be it but I just thought, I'd throw that out there. It's amazing how much that makes me gag when I smell it.


Wayne: (46:48)

Well the medicated ghee's can taste very different to just plain Ghee. So, there's one medicine that I use a lot called [inaudible 00:46:58] , which has made with a [inaudible 00:47:01] which is a resin that's found in the Mocho tree, which is very good as an anti-inflammatory. I use it a lot in rheumatoid arthritis cases, very good for regulating cholesterol levels, but the ticktum is bitter.


Wayne: (47:17)

So there's a whole range of different bitter herbs that are infused, and it changes the whole composition of the fat. So, say it's August, it's still pretty cold and I've got 10 different medicated fats in jars sitting on my shelf. One fat will be completely solid. Whereas I might have another fat that's going to be almost liquid or semi-liquid. And the reason is because the ghee has imbibed the qualities of those herbs.


Wayne: (47:48)

So those herbs are influencing the actual texture and the composition of the fats. So if I look at how those fats are going to interact, like if I've got a really bitter fat, I know that it's going to be predominantly cooling, and I know that it's going to be, it's going to have.


Wayne: (48:03)

sort of those qualities that are going to be soothing. So it's more compacted. Whereas, if I have a Ghee that is very sharp in its attributes, because of the way that it's been infused with these herbs, it's going to have more of a liquid composition by nature.


Wayne: (48:22)

So if I was wanting to get those drugs into the deeper parts, like if there were say, growths you know lymphatic congestion. I would be looking at these types of vehicles for drugs to get that drug in to start breaking down. And those deposits, those fatty or congested deposits that might be accumulating the body.


Wayne: (48:47)

So every step of the way of Ayurvedic cleansing, everything is carefully considered. Because what we're essentially doing, is we're looking at what the presenting qualities are of the tissues in the body and what needs to be done and we're looking at which drugs matched and support bringing that body back to balance most efficiently.


Mason: (49:09)



Wayne: (49:09)

So when we start getting into those higher doses of Ghee, I'll notice that the skin will become oily. The lacrimal secretions of the eyes can become sticky and eventually the Ghee will be passed as stool. So what that tells me is that the body is saturated and can't take any more fat.


Wayne: (49:35)

That means we've reached [inaudible 00:01:37]. According to classical texts, that means that the fat has penetrated the deepest tissue level. It supposedly goes into the marrow and it takes those constituents into the cells. And then the cells are forced to excrete excess metabolites, because the cells are saturated. So it pushes the gunk out of the membrane of the cell back into those channels of circulation, the extracellular compartments, and it starts making its way back to the digestive system or the cavity.


Wayne: (50:18)

So what we're doing is we're taking drugs in, and we're actually using them as a vehicle to bring the gunk back out into the areas where we can expel them from the body. Excuse me.


Wayne: (50:32)

One of the beautiful things about using these fats is, it's going to support the elimination of fat soluble toxins as well. When we're looking at lead, mercury and cadmium, we're looking at potential binding agents for these toxic elements that are not able to be excreted from the body naturally. We have a very efficient detoxifying system, but water-soluble substances are more efficiently excreted through those pathways. If we're using the fat soluble constituents, then we're able to be more effective with what we're actually bringing out of the body. Excuse me.


Mason: (51:22)

That's what's really striking me as the most significant thing here. Having the wham-bam cleansers in the repertoire, if you do have a strong body and maybe not, as you were saying, like a Vata dominance at the time when you're doing a cleanse. Beautiful, it's like me going and having a sauna or doing my thing here and there. I'm probably after so many years of deep cleansing, I'm happy having my little break, but then when you... I was just dropping into the significance, especially getting deep enough into the tissue and the marrow into those cells where they can offload those fat-soluble toxins or gunk for that better way to look at it. Just if you can drop in and feel the amount of degeneration that could potentially be avoided and the amount of vibrant health that would be procured and grown in the population.


Mason: (52:23)

That's why I do like Ayurveda. After really having that time in Taoism and I've had my little obsessive time and now I'm out. I'm just looking everywhere. I'm looking at that strength of Ayurveda and what it's like. It's nice to see... In some places it's always been strong, like in places in India and in the community.


Mason: (52:46)

I'm seeing in my world, this resurgence. Especially in this sensible cleansing scape, it's the contribution that it's going to be able to potentially offer into the, hopefully integrated medical system in the future, but people can just start taking it on now and saving themselves a lot of hassle in the future when they have all this gunk stuck in their body.


Wayne: (53:10)

Yeah. Well as you say it's preventing that degeneration. Fat's considered as the preserving agent of life in Ayurveda. So when we're cleansing, we're also introducing a preserving action. So we're actually supporting that cellular activity at the same time with the use of fatty substances. You can use them for nourishment. You can use them for palliative care and you can use them for cleansing. It's such a versatile medium that supports human health. It's fantastic. We need fats. They support nourish... And especially with cleansing, because what we're doing is, we're actually... It's quite an aggressive kind of impact on the body. And we need to make sure that we're kind of like buffering those harmful impacts. So once we actually get the body to that level of saturation, that's when all of the hard work finishes.


Wayne: (54:24)

After that, usually I'll book my patients in for three to five day therapies. So this is where Ayurveda just has this beautiful neurological calming, mental calming, cleansing procedure, where you come in and you have medicated oil massage.


Wayne: (54:44)

What we're doing is, we want to manipulate all of the Ghee and the herbs that we've introduced into the body. So we're going to start actually physically squeezing, pushing and supporting the lymphatic system and basically encouraging physically the gunk or the armour to come back to the abdominal cavity. So we do that through hour to hour and a half massages. Then you go into a herbalist steam bath. So you can probably see that steam bath behind me. It looks kind of like a coffin. What we do is we use a combination-


Mason: (55:20)

It's a nice coffin.


Wayne: (55:20)

Yeah it's pleasurable coffin.


Mason: (55:27)

For those of you on audio, there isn't just some generic, modern...


Wayne: (55:33)

It's a nice handcrafted, hand-carved coffin.


Wayne: (55:37)

Yeah so we put the 10 root herbs generally in the decoction and you have this herbalised steam pumped into the steam chamber. This is another little thing that Ayurveda takes into consideration too. You're lying in the steam chamber and you're having your body pumped with herbalised steam. It usually sits at about 42 degrees, or around there. But your head sits out the end. So we're not exposing the eyes to excess heat, and we're still allowing the body to have that nice fresh air coming in. What I do is I get organic Rose water and douse it in tissue and you just sit it over the eyes so it keeps the eyes really cool. Your body's cooking, but your head stays cool. What we're looking for is signs that heat is starting to move above the clavicle.


Wayne: (56:25)

You'll see that where the ears start to get red, you'll start to get droplets of sweat. So I leave the patient in there until they start breaking a sweat, but there's a point where they do feel hot and they're ready to get out.


Wayne: (56:44)

From the studies that I've looked at, there's these heat shock proteins that are released and you get all of these really nice anti-inflammatory actions that come with that herbal steam therapy that is supporting cleansing as well. It affects the dopamine levels and serotonin levels, so it's very good for regulating the nervous system as well, really calms the mind.


Wayne: (57:06)

So what we do is, we manipulate the body and then when we cook the body, so it dilates. It expands. So you get these channels where you've got these extracellular spaces that are starting to move gunk back to the channels of elimination. Through the heat, you're actually supporting a wider berth to allow these substances to move. Because you've got that saturation of the Ghee, you've got this nice lubrication within those channels of circulation, so it prevents anything from getting stuck or just ending up lodged somewhere down the pathway. So It really encourages everything to come back to the gastrointestinal tract as well.


Wayne: (57:49)

So you're getting these three to five days of super relaxing therapies. Then, depending on the success of that, if it's done properly, everything runs smooth. So on the fifth day, the evening before we actually eliminate all the gunk from the system, you have quite a tasty meal. What we're doing is, we're encouraging a lot of acids and enzymes and a lot of activity to come back to the gastrointestinal tract. The tastier your food and the more varied it tastes... If you have something that is a combination of sweet, sour, salty, pungent, bitter, and astringent, you're going to draw out all the potential enzymatic and gastric activity that is going to digest that spectrum of taste, which is pretty much all the tastes that we have.


Wayne: (58:44)

So for every taste there'll be an equivalent digestive substance to break that down. So what we want to do is, we want to encourage that to come in, back into the elementary tract. Then the following morning, on the rise of the red sun, you take a particular... This is with the purgation. It's different with the Amacethes, but you'll take a substance, it might be a paste. Generally what I use in my clinic is, I use castor oil at a fairly high dose. And I mix that with either almond milk, depending on the patient's preference or milk. Castor oil on its own is disgusting. It's really gluggy, it's a horrible oil. But when you combine it with a little bit of sugar and milk is actually it's quite palatable.


Wayne: (59:36)

So you have that on the rising of the red sun, according to classic texts. So as soon as that sun comes up, it's when you drink this castor oil. Then usually you'll have triphala powder about 10, 15 minutes after that.


Wayne: (59:52)

Then you just relax and you just sit back and enjoy the ride. So you're on the toilet generally four to six hours.


Mason: (01:00:06)

If you don't mind explaining what the movements are like? Is it gluggy? Is it running out? Is it spurting out? What do you expect there?


Wayne: (01:00:17)

Basically, using Ayurvedic inflammation knowledge, we can predict what the dose is going to be. So the thing is, I don't want to... Each dose will be different for each patient, because we have ways of gauging whether the bowl has a tendency towards dryness or whether it has a tendency towards oiliness, or if it's somewhere in between. So the dose is determined based on all of these different variables, based on the patient's body type. So it can be a little bit delayed. Everybody's transit and peristaltic kind of activity is slightly different. My experience is that I might have a patient that is going to start having bowel motions within 45 minutes, somebody might not have one for two hours, and then somebody might have a strong one after an hour and nothing for a few hours after that.


Wayne: (01:01:22)

So it does vary. But what I'm looking for is, I want all of the solid matter to be evacuated. Then it usually goes into a semi liquid state, then it goes to a liquid state and then usually there can be a bright orange pigment in the stool or a little bit green. What that's telling me, is that I'm getting into the areas where the bile duct is starting to cleanse. So I'm able to gauge how efficiently I've cleaned out that digestive tract. That's what we want to get to. Once we can get to that point, usually it just becomes a clear water. At that point I want to turn the tap off, because we've eliminated the gunk, it's been a successful procedure. But, if we keep going after that, and this is why dosage is really important, we start going into dehydration. We start getting into the point where we start draining the body and we start affecting the electrolyte and fluid balance.


Wayne: (01:02:26)

There is a formula, or a drink that you usually take. It's called Takra. It's a buttermilk that has a combination of spices. It might have a combination of a formula called Hingwashtak Churna, which is a combination of eight different spices. It's got hing in there. It's got black cumin seed, cumin seed, coriander, it's got some salts in there and ajowan seed.


Mason: (01:02:58)



Wayne: (01:02:59)

It's actually quite-


Mason: (01:03:00)

That was a sincere yum. Not the yum when I was referring to the triphala. That was a sarcastic yum.


Wayne: (01:03:07)

Yeah, triphala is not very good. Apparently, when your body is balanced triphala should actually taste sweet.


Wayne: (01:03:16)

I've never-


Mason: (01:03:17)

Oh, God, I'm a mess.


Wayne: (01:03:18)

I've never experienced it either. Usually the-


Mason: (01:03:21)

Back to the drawing board.


Wayne: (01:03:24)

The feedback from the taste perception will determine the qualities, or the imbalanced state that your body's in. So some people do find it quite sour. Some people will find it stringent. Some people find it really bitter. So it does vary. And that's usually the present health that determines that.


Mason: (01:03:44)

Schisandra berry does that for us. It gives us an insight for them depending on what they're tasting.


Wayne: (01:03:51)

Yeah. Taste receptors are really important and they provide a lot of information.


Wayne: (01:03:55)

So you'll have this Takra, and what that does is it acts as a little bit of a binding agent. So it helps to turn that tap off and then that's pretty much done. But the thing is, if you're doing a strong purge, or if you're eliminating all of this gunk, you're also losing a lot of bile, salts, gastric acids, enzymatic activity as well through that purge. So we need to start building that back up. This is a really critical time. From my experiences, this is one of the most important parts of cleansing, because what people do is they do these really intense elimination processes, but they don't put the time into rebuilding that digestive fire. Without a good strong digestive system, you're just going to go back into creating partially undigested substances when you're eating.


Wayne: (01:04:50)

You're not going to be able to build healthy tissues and you're not going to build waste products. So it's kind of like a campfire. You've got to start with that kindling, little bit of paper, and then you listen to the fire. The fire will tell you what it needs. You know when to put the sticks on, and then you can start getting back to that point where you've got nice, good, hot coals and good hardwood sitting on them, burning for long periods of time. That usually, depending on how intense the elimination and the purge is, would determine how many days it will take to get the digestive system back on track. So good digestion is key. That is one of the most important things for health. If you're not breaking down food efficiently, you're not producing good quality, healthy tissues and your metabolic system is going to mirror that as well.


Wayne: (01:05:47)

If your digestion is sluggish, your metabolism will sluggish. If it's erratic, your metabolism will be erratic. If it's too sharp, then you're going to be hungry all the time. You're going to need to eat six meals a day. We spend about four days just building that food back up. There's specific recipes that we'll do. Generally, we just introduce some rice water. We'll cook some rice and basically you're just drinking that water with a bit of cumin, a little bit of salt. All we're doing is we're trying to stimulate the digestion, but we're introducing basic sugars into the system. We just build the energy back up because the body's tired, it needs to be hydrated. The salt supports the electrolytes, and then we start introducing a little bit of food and then we build up, and then we get back to normal. Once we get to that point, this is a really good time to start introducing your tonic herbs.


Mason: (01:06:46)

The convalescence stage.


Wayne: (01:06:49)



Wayne: (01:06:50)

You're going to have really good absorption... Are you there?


Mason: (01:06:55)



Wayne: (01:06:56)

I think I just lost you.


Wayne: (01:06:57)

You're going to have really good absorption. So chances are whatever tonic herbs you're having for whatever... We've all got strong and weak tissue systems. Some people have good muscles. Some people have good bones. Some people have good nervous systems. We want to prop up and support the weakest tissues with those tonic herbs. Because we've cleaned that system out and we've improved pathways of communication, we're going to get those active constituents getting to where they need to act. This is the most important thing, because this is where the immune system comes online. It's strong where the tissues... They're robust and healthy. Then we'll introduce... We call it Rasayana in Ayurveda, which means just rejuvenation or strengthening.


Wayne: (01:07:50)

It's super important to cleanse, but it's super important to build. If you can always just make sure that whatever cleansing that you're doing, you've always got an element where you, prep, you support, you cleanse, you rebuild, you strengthen. That's key. If you can get that right, you're not going to feel like you need to do a cleanse, because you've gotten everything back to normal. It's like taking your car to a mechanic. You get everything cleaned out, the car just runs better. You don't feel like you need to go back to the mechanic and clean the oil out a week or two later, because you've gotten the job done properly.


Mason: (01:08:31)

Especially if you're doing routine maintenance, that's possible just at home. Maintaining that with diet, with saunas, tonic herbs. Just to be in that diet that keeps you running and strong.


Wayne: (01:08:49)



Mason: (01:08:50)

Go on. It's all good. We're just both too excited. No, go for it.


Wayne: (01:08:56)

The maintenance was super important. This is where the daily practises come in. Like tongue scraping every day. Having freshly grated ginger tea first thing in the morning. The Ayurvedic oil massage and also not just considering health as being healthy skin, healthy tissues, healthy digestive system. When we look at what the definition of life is in Ayurveda, it's a combination of the body, the tissue systems, the mind and the sense organs.


Wayne: (01:09:36)

Ideally, if we look at what our objective is as Ayurvedic physicians, we want to have really healthy functioning digestion, really healthy functioning tissue systems. We want to have clear cognitive function and we want to have really well functioning sense organs. We want to be able to see clearly, hear clearly, smell clearly, taste and have good tactile perception. The objective is to... Ayurveda considers that the central factor of existences is the [foreign language 01:10:12], or the soul or the witness. Whatever is operating through that medium is the witness. Whatever's in me, whatever's in you that is just there that's watching. That's aware of thought, aware of essential perception and aware of its body. That is the central factor. We want that soul, or that witnessing factor to be able to come into this physiology and just relax, just relax into being.


Wayne: (01:10:42)

If the body's healthy, if the sense organs are healthy, the feedback is clear, if the cognitive function is working. Well that can be a really beautiful experience. It's when all of that distortion comes into the mind and all of the stories. Then that sets off hormonal and endocrine dysfunction and digestive dysfunction. The body becomes sluggish or irregular. We want that to be really clear.


Wayne: (01:11:09)

Coming back to the sense organs, this is our communication bridge. Our pathway to the external reality is determined by how clearly we can see. A lot of these practises, these maintenance practises are geared up to support that central perception. There's things that support the quality of the taste buds, things that support the nervous system, things that improve good quality preservation of the ear canals and the olfactory receptors and all those sort of things. This is a really important part of cleansing as well. And strengthening is big. Because we don't want eyesight to start to fail when we're in our sixties and seventies. We don't want to be able to not listen to music as we get older. But I think this is an important thing that we should probably start paying a bit more attention to.


Wayne: (01:12:03)

....attention to. It's like the things that I love in this life experience and the things that I'm perceiving through my sense organs. It's not because I'm trying to get really nice quality skin or this or that, or the cosmetic stuff, it's actually to enhance the relationship that I have with life. Enhance the relationship with the world.


Mason: (01:12:27)



Wayne: (01:12:27)

And I think-


Mason: (01:12:28)

Huge distinction.


Wayne: (01:12:29)

Yeah and Ayurvedic physicians really understood that. They really understood the importance of tactile, our perceptive capacity. And you'll see it filtered through these daily lifestyles that come into our programmes, that come into our treatment plans and things that you do daily.


Mason: (01:12:51)

And it would be nice to my eyes and turn off one of these spotlights in the corner of that. And taking care of my eyesight.


Mason: (01:12:58)

It's one of the things I remembered most significantly. I'm just talking to a friend, Jake [Kassa 00:01:12:00], he's a bushman tracker, survivalist, and many other things down on the central coast and every now and then he goes bush and does his week or two weeks or three weeks just living off the land. And he's like always the first thing that comes back is I realise how much my hearing comes back and my eyesight comes back. And it's always when I'm going hot to trot, working, familying and everything. At times, there'll be an instance where I realise there's a little bit of a slight dulling, not a degeneration yet, but a dulling of the eyesight and my capacity to snap between different lengths of vision and smell and all these things.


Mason: (01:13:54)

And it's a very interesting one because when you look at that, the Western perspective is, "Oh, well." Not that I have this feeling, but I can empathise with them. "Oh, well, that's just starting to slide." I guess that just means I'm heading in that direction. "Oh, well, lots of people lose their eyesight." And some people... I bring this up a lot in terms of, no judgement for people that just maybe don't have the greatest 20/20 vision, that's fine, but it does happen, but there is a time when it is in your control. You can't just have this full, "Oh, that was just a roll of the dice." That person just has bad vision.


Mason: (01:14:41)

But there's a part of you that could have focused on that for years and years. And that's kind of like... I point that out when I've got say a picture, just as a bit of fun, I had a picture of Bill Gates and I was like look at this guy, photosensitive, balding, thin hair, bad vision, that's not someone taking health advice. I kind of bring that conversation in there.


Mason: (01:15:08)

So, bringing us home a little bit, what have you got for us in terms of working on our sensory engagement? I assume getting out into the elements is one.


Wayne: (01:15:20)

Absolutely. I think getting out in nature is probably one of the most therapeutic things that we can do. I just feel so much better. If I don't spend a day up in the hinterland and playing around the waterfalls and just walking in nature, I'd come home and I just feel like my body just resets. And I think it's that mentally a reset. And if I generate a good internal mental space, it enables me to pay attention and just to be aware of my surroundings. And I think if we're doing that, a lot of the mental distortion starts to fall away and you just naturally engage more into sensory awareness. You pay more attention. It's almost like you're generating more energy or communication along those pathways. And I think it's like if you want to get strong muscles, exercise. You want to have strong sense organs, go and use them. Go sit in the woods and just listen. Listen to the birds, listen to what's happening. Watch, pay attention, look at the different colours and all of that stuff it's really important.


Wayne: (01:16:38)

But with the Ayurvedic daily routines that are just sort of built into the system. You've got the Ayurvedic massage where we're using specific medicated oils that you apply to the skin. So, that supports the tactile perception or the nerve endings that are giving you sensory information through there.


Wayne: (01:16:59)

There is Anu Taila, which is a medicated nasal oil. It's very good for applying. It's called pratimarsha nasya, which means you apply it daily. So, you just add two drops on the end of your pinky and you rub it on the inside of your nose. And what that does is it supports the microbiome. It supports the immune system there. It acts as a decongestant. The nose is considered as the gateway to the mind or the brain in Ayurveda. So, we use a lot of herbs that actually pass through that sensory receptors and those external nerve endings.


Mason: (01:17:38)

In essential oil form?


Wayne: (01:17:41)

No, it's not essential oil. It's actually like, anu means minute. So, these oils, there's about 60 herbs that are infused, as well as, there's some goat's milk that's infused in there as well. And they're decocted for and processed 101 times. So, it's a really refined oil. There's not a lot of essential oil extraction in Ayurveda. It's decocted, its...


Mason: (01:18:07)

That's probably why it's actually good for the microbiome because it's not an essential oil.


Wayne: (01:18:13)

Yeah. Yeah. Well, Ayurveda is very gentle. If you look at the ingredients, Anu Taila, for example, there's herbs that are commonly used for improving cognitive function. They're used as what's called kapha nasarika, which means that it removes excess congestion and it clears the channels, clears the sinuses. Herbs like Bedonga which is [inaudible 00:06:43], which is a really popular antiparasitic, anti-microbial.


Wayne: (01:18:53)

You learn a lot about the action of the medicine based on the action of the active constituents in there. So, these herbs are going to be supporting the health of the nasal cavity. They're going to create a protective layer. Very good for spring time because you're getting these pollens and this dust and if there's dryness, this is the stuff that your mucus membranes are going to start reacting to.


Wayne: (01:19:14)

Whereas if you've just got this really nice coating of medicated oil on the inside of the nose, you're actually protecting it. You're creating a little barrier there. So, you're supporting the body's potential reactivity when it comes into contact with that sort of stuff.


Mason: (01:19:33)

Do you sell that?


Wayne: (01:19:34)

Yeah, yeah. We have all that. It's all available online. So, the tongue scrapers, the oil, the nasal oil. Mustard oil has been traditionally used or sesame oil in the ear, as well, as a preserving agent. Mustard oil is very good for tinnitus. Things like ginger tea in the morning, oil pulling, it just cleans up and supports the oral cavity, which is super important. Oil pulling-


Mason: (01:20:02)

What kind of oil are you using? Yeah, go for it. You're actually going to have to talk about it anyway. Yeah.


Wayne: (01:20:06)

Yeah, we use an oil, we call it Gandush oil. Gandush just means oil pulling in sanskrit. So, we use a combination of coconut oil and sesame oil. So, sesame oil is traditionally used for oil pulling, but we use a little bit of coconut oil because we now understand that it has good antimicrobial activity. So, there are benefits to using coconut oil, but what you don't get with coconut oil is... Sesame oil has an affinity with the nervous system. So, when we're looking at... And it's also really good antibacterial. So, when we're oil pulling, we're also paying attention to all of these trigeminal and cranial nerves that we're supporting through that activity. So, we're getting that nourishment of the nervous system that's happening while we're doing that activity as well. And so, that's really beneficial.


Wayne: (01:21:04)

And just on oil pulling, because I know online, there's a lot of information that you should do it for 20 minutes. That's a lot of time, especially, if you're busy in the morning. My observation, and I don't have any studies to back this up, but my observation is that if I'm oil pulling and I'm doing it for long enough to liquefy that oil, well that's telling me is that I'm producing enough amylase from my salivary secretions to get it to that stage. And if I'm producing those enzymes, I'm probably producing a lot of beneficial activity that supports the oral cavity.


Wayne: (01:21:46)

So, I think with that enzymatic activity, liquification of the oil, you get it to that point. That only takes like three to five minutes so, if you do it for another 15 minutes, you might be just exercising the muscular structure of the jaw. That might be a beneficial thing. If you want to use it for that. If you've got any sort of degenerative area issues or problems, muscular issues, that might be a good idea. But I think in terms of just supporting that environment and the bacteria, the environment, just to get it to that liquefying state and then you can spit it out and that's fine.


Mason: (01:22:25)

You can probably just watch a couple of comedies to exercise those muscles as well, rather than do the 20 minutes.


Wayne: (01:22:31)

Yeah, there's better ways to do that.


Mason: (01:22:34)

Well, that's good to hear. I'm going to get some. I don't think I told you, but what I'll do is I'll put together a little pack and I'll order it. I'll order a big pack, and we'll do a little giveaway off the back of this podcast or something coming out so if anyone listens to this. If you haven't listened to us straightaway, you've probably missed it. So, that's okay. It just goes to show, you probably should have subscribed and next time you'll get the reminder to go and do the giveaway. But if you're listening to this straight away, you can head over to Instagram and it'll be something nice and simple for you to go in the draw to win those sensory activating packs.


Mason: (01:23:11)

I'm getting inspired again around the cleansing because I scared myself off being in the raw food scene and being a hardcore yang personality like Gemini around it. I just jumped into the deep end and I didn't do damage to myself but I was definitely psychological.


Wayne: (01:23:28)

Your body type is a little bit more robust. I mean because of the oil constitution, you can get away with a little bit more than others.


Mason: (01:23:39)

No, not when I have a little bit of sleep deprivation with a toddler still. And I'm working inside a lot more now. I'm not practising as much as I used to. And I sensed it. I was like, this is going to be dangerous. So, if I try to go for that rip off the band-aid cleansing approach. I don't know why... I started oil pulling about 10 years ago and I don't know why I really stopped. I think I got a little bit turned off, which isn't a nice quality that I had at the time, once it started getting like really picked up with those trendy bloggers that used to work in the magazines and then transitioned to become the wellness crew in the last decade in two tens and that.


Mason: (01:24:19)

I just got turned off it for some reason, which isn't something I'd probably recommend to get it throwing the baby out with the bath water. But I'm looking forward to getting back on it, especially that three to five minutes in the morning, as you were talking about.


Mason: (01:24:31)

And the final question I had in regards to the nasal cleansing, that oil sounds amazing. I'm really looking forward to that because something that I did stop doing a while ago, not for any particular reason, but I've been doing neti pots for about five years. And I just had a pause for a while. Thought, I'd just get your input on that.


Wayne: (01:24:55)

Yeah. Look, neti pots are great especially this time of year. Just maintaining that good, clear sinus cavity especially when there's a lot of pollens and there's a lot of gunk that's moving into these superficial channels. It's really important, but you just have to be careful that you don't dry the nasal cavity out too much. So, I think less can be more and as long as you're abiding by these principles where if you're going to use a saline solution, dry something out, liquefy excess mucus congestion, just back it up with a little bit of oil. It can be on Anu Taila and where you're just creating that lubricated protective layer after you've used it. Or you can just use something like sesame oil, which is fun or even olive oil. It's not going to be energetically as good, but it's better than leaving it. I like it.


Mason: (01:25:54)

The application, is that getting up and in as you would with a neti pot or are you just coating?


Wayne: (01:26:01)

You're just coating unless you're doing nasya karma, which is one of the five processes of elimination. So, you'll be doing the whole process where you do the ghee saturation, but we actually like steam. We do a full head massage, really loosen everything up and then we apply herbal steam. So, we're actually heating out the head and then we'll add generally about eight to 12 drops in each nostril. So, it's quite a strong dose, but the thing is you have to be very careful with using any kind of invasive therapy with the ears, nose and throat. So, what we'll do is we'll add larger amounts of the oil and then you'll clear that out. And then what we'll do is we'll follow that up with like a saline mouth gargle and wash and clear that out. And then you inhale turmeric smoke.


Wayne: (01:27:03)

So, we mix all that up with clarified butter and turmeric and then we light that up and you inhale the smoke. So, it helps to dry it out and sort of stabilise the area and kill any sort of bacteria. So, it's quite a complicated process, but I think if you're using neti pot on a regular basis and you do have sinus issues and congestion, I don't think there's any major concerns with that. It's just probably more so that you want to get the right combination of salt water so you're actually supporting that pH balance.


Wayne: (01:27:46)

And you want to probably steer away from using town water too for that as well. All of the crap that's in our water. I mean, people have been using substances up their nose for a long time, all sorts of the different bits and pieces and we know the effects that it's going to have directly on the nervous system and on the brain. So, I'm not sure if you're using fluoride and using chlorine and stuff like that, you're actually exposing that cilia to those harmful chemicals, whether that's having a detrimental impact on the nerves and the brain. I would probably use something like distilled water or spring water.


Mason: (01:28:35)

Yeah. We're in kind of in the middle of a long-term, non-chronological water series. So, everyone should have been tuning in getting lots of opinions about different filters and spring waters, but don't get caught up too much in the filter wars. Just pick something that, to the best of your ability, you think is going to get most of the crap out. At least it's a little bit better than putting straight municipal water up your nose.


Mason: (01:29:04)

Well, for those of you that don't know neti pot, it's got a little spout, goes up one nostril, you turn your head in a particular way. It goes up through the cavity and either's running out through the other nostril or back of the throat through the mouth. Is that a fair explanation?


Wayne: (01:29:17)

Yeah, I think you've got to sort of get your head around it and it's a bit of an art form. But start with just in one nose out the other, but then after a while you can start sucking it back through your mouth and then clearing those areas, but just careful.


Mason: (01:29:42)

I've been doing it. I've been switched to doing it... I do it in the ocean. I just jump in and get a cup of water and turn and just snort it straight up. [crosstalk 01:29:50]


Wayne: (01:29:49)

That's what I do in the morning if I go for a swim. I always feel better too. I think just that ocean water, bringing the concept of prana and there's that life force that comes through salty water, ocean water, ocean air, just enlivens the senses and supports that sense of clarity.


Mason: (01:30:11)

Oh, man. Well, look, we've gone pretty deep on the cleansing today, but gently. We've gone in gently.


Wayne: (01:30:17)

We don't [crosstalk 01:30:18].


Mason: (01:30:21)

Oh, it's been great as usual. I've really learned a lot. I feel like I've begun opening up, I think I said in the last podcast as well, more and more to Ayurveda. For some reason, I think it was just like I couldn't fit any more in for where I was at in life. And it's becoming more and more relevant.


Mason: (01:30:38)

I'm going to put it an order in for myself and start. I feel like my sensory organs could use that little bit of love. And so, I'll get some ear drops and some stuff from my nose. And yeah, I'm looking forward to it. I'll chat to you, maybe, before I put that order in.


Wayne: (01:30:59)

I'll send you down to one of our cleanse pack books that we use for... We do a spring cleanse, which is a little bit less intense and like the strong, punchy, karma therapies where it's diet, herb and lifestyle daily activity specific, but it has all of these daily practises in there and it's got a whole bunch of recipes and basically a plan that you can follow for 10 days. So, you can jump on that if you want to do that. And when you got time and we'll put you through the ringer. We'll get you up here and-


Mason: (01:31:31)

Yeah, that sounds good. How long does it take to get put through the ringer?


Wayne: (01:31:34)

Well, you need to generally 14 days. 14 to 15 days, but you can do most of it at home. So, the preliminary treatments with the herbs and then the internal ghee you do that at home. And then you come in for three to five days of the treatments and then you go home. Purging, doing these sort of things, if you're at home you're comfortable, you're relaxed, your nervous system is relaxed and you're just going to get a better result. So yeah, three to five days.


Mason: (01:32:02)

All right, sounds good. Yeah. Five days up on the sunny coast isn't bad.


Wayne: (01:32:10)

Doesn't sound that bad.


Mason: (01:32:11)

Radman, anywhere you want people in particular to come and check you guys out at the moment? New websites popping along right...


Wayne: (01:32:17)

Yeah, we're just waiting on a few things, but most of its up and running. So that's, Y-U-K-T-I. And yeah, we've got the special media pages, yukti_healthcare on Facebook. I've got a personal page Celeban Ayurveda on Instagram, where I just sort of do a few other bits and pieces and things. It's not just yukti specific. So, you can go and check that out.


Mason: (01:32:50)

Good to have that outlet. Beautiful man. All right, everyone go and connect. Get on the newsletter list. You got a newsletter?


Wayne: (01:32:59)

Yeah, we got a newsletter. Yeah, so if you just go onto our page, it'll pop up and give you the newsletter option and check that out.


Mason: (01:33:05)

Right. Get onto it everyone. Thanks so much for coming on, man, we have to tune in about what we're going to cover next time.


Wayne: (01:33:10)

Yeah, you're welcome man. It's a pleasure, always a pleasure.


Mason: (01:33:13)



Wayne: (01:33:14)

Have a good day.

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