We're so stroked to have one of our favourite guests, Rhonda Chang, back on the podcast with Mason today. Initially we weren't sure whether our SF community would be ready to receive Rhonda's wisdom, however, to our absolute delight everyone frothed on her first episode - you can check it out here. We always knew we had to have Rhonda back on to continue sharing her deeply authentic application of the traditional philosophy and practice of true Chinese medicine, or what Rhonda refers to as 'Yi'. Rhonda has a brilliant article explaining the difference between Yi and what many of us know as modern Traditional Chinese Medicine, I highly recommend you check it out here.
Mason and Rhonda discuss:
- Yinyang wuxing theory and how that relates to the body and organ systems.
- The qualities of the five elements; Water, Wood, Fire, Earth and Metal.
- The spirit and body as inspearable parts of the whole, and the importance of holding this view when working to heal dis-harmony in the body, mind and spirit.
- Rhonda's classification of tonic herb.
- How the practice of Yinyang wuxing is a method of healing, and not a 'medicine'.
Who is Rhonda Chang?
For the past 40 years Rhonda Chang has been involved in the study and practice of traditional healing. The journey has been long and tortuous. Rhonda began her studies at the Beijing College of Traditional Medicine. After graduation Rhonda worked as a physician at a number of hospitals in China. In 1986 she migrated to Australia and opened her own treatment clinic. Rhonda operated her clinic up until 2012, where she felt that government regulation was overly restricting her practice of healing and that the professionalisation of TCM in Australia had subordinated it to modern medicine. Since then Rhonda has focused her energies on writing books and promoting a return to traditional YinYang Wuxing healing principles.
Rhonda's Facebook Group
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Check Out The Transcript Here:
Rhonda, thank you so much for joining us again.
Thank you for having me.
Absolute pleasure. It was by far one of the favourite podcasts from the community that we've ever had.
Nice to hear. Yes.
Yeah. A big feeling of nostalgia for everyone, I think, as they returned to our roots.
I'm so glad, actually, a general public and so interest in this kind of talks, which very encouraged.
Good. I didn't know either how, whether our community would be ready or willing to have the conversation, but people who have never studied Chinese medicine have written to me, old friends saying I listened to that podcast and I really resonated. So I'm encouraged as well. So we covered so much of, especially the content in your book, Chinese medicine, masquerading as Yi. And I got to get my pronunciation of Yi.
Yes, that's right.
And then what was that? Sorry.
I said, I'm calling the Yi, just tried to separate from the Chinese medicine because when you talk about Chinese medicine, when you're using that word or even traditional Chinese medicine, people get confused to this modern Chinese medicine, seems they've taken over the name, so I prefer to call Yi as a..
I agree. It's almost in the long run. It is going to be less energy to just return to a classical word. Like Yi, we do tell people, if we're speaking English, we will refer to classical Chinese medicine as Yi and masquerading Chinese medicine is TCM, but still you're right. But Chinese medicine-
It's hard to. Yes. I think this medicine, it's not really about a Chinese, it's about the philosophy. So I called them Yi because of that. Even before the Western medicine come from China, the Yi, didn't have a Chinese there and only the Western medicine got into China and then they try to separate. So they call the CE, which is a Western medicine and the Gong E, Chinese medicine. So that's how the name come from and that's only last the 100 years. So before that it was just Yi. That's what I actually like to go back to Yi.
Huge distinction. That already takes so much of the commodification of this medicine out because Yi belongs to the earth. It doesn't belong to a nation, a civilization.
That's right. Very much. It's not about the Chinese. It's about the tradition of the healing. So it's about the earth and the moon and the sun and the us and the oldest class. Yes. So it is.
Just as we go into discussing the concept of what Yi is at its essence and the yinyang wuxing cycle. I just found a quote that you had on your Facebook group, which I encourage those who want to study more yinyang wuxing yi is that the Facebook group?
A quote from the book of changes, when the sun reaches its Zenith, it will decline when the moon reaches its fullest, it will wane heaven and earth, wax, and wane. They all comply with the regulation of time, let alone people let alone ghosts and spirits.
Absolutely. Yes. I love that phrase.
It really sets us up for where we're going to be going today in this continuation of health and harmony.
Well, if I'm going into that, it's a lot to talk about it. And that's what I'm writing this, I'm writing this a new course. It's about how the sun positioned the moon and the world. We call that the sun position on earth. We call the (inudiable), which heaven kind of a positioning on earth. And then the moon time circle around which it gives us that sense of time. Isn't it? So the time and the position, how they form that so-called the yinyang wuxing was here and our body with the meridians and the organs. Yes. But I wouldn't go through that because that's a lot of new names that people won't really get it so quickly, but we just talk about Yin and Yang and we'll see how the wuxing. We cut off of how the wuxing concept came from, but we just talk about what is the wuxing now in which we call that Woodfire and Metal and Water.
In my other courses, I actually explained how this concept came from. It wasn't just abstract. It was exactly from the sun, the moon and on the impact on us, that's how that happened. But we'll talk about wood, because everything got a Yin and Yang, which we call that Yin is kind of a contraction and Yang is expansion. So everything got Yin a Yang, like a wood. The Yang of the would erect the Yin of the Woodcontract isn't so that bending and that solid. So they go Yin Woodand become solid. So that actually we say everything, just about all wuxing, everything you see it's about wuxing thing, kind of variation and different ways of presenting. So as our body basically have this Woodthing, organs, we call wuxing organs.
So your liver is like a Woodso the Yang of the would make you errect isn't it. And so the Yang of the liver makes your body straight and the Yin of the body flexible. So you can bend. And then that's what organs are. Your body also is said, Yin and Yang that, what is the Yin of the body is your flesh, your bones and your muscles and all this material and the Yang of your body is your spirit. So what is spirit and the body do is spirit using your body to perform their desire or their thoughts? like what, we call thoughts. So your body is actually responsible to perform what your spirit wants. And then your spirit actually depends on the body to perform.
So if there's no body they can't perform, and if there's not spirit, the body will rot because the spirit makes the body lively. The spirit is a Yang. Anyway, that's in the book. I explain the more detail. So we say what the spirit do for your Woodis... So if your spirit, Yang of the wood, Yang of the spirit, the Woodspirit, I call them a striving tool. What they do is they make you kind of you want to fight. And the stand for yourself strong. The Yin make you flexible and acceptable go along with it. So, but if your Yin is not good, what do you do? You fight? And that if your Yang is no good, you kind of timid.
So you can't cope with the problems and hide yourself because you're scared. So that's how everything you got. If you have a problem with your muscles? So if you muscle can't move or tight, always what we say, that you've a Yin problem, isn't it? So if you are muscles can't get you erect, so we say that it's your Yang problem. And you can actually look at all this and then your body too like Kidney. Kidney is Water. Most people can relate to these, isn't it? Because Kidney really is a Water organ. So what that Water do is that it's got Yin and Yang, which this Yin and the Yang of the organ study, or even in the traditional texts, it hasn't really explicitly describe this insight or Yang side of each organ.
They can quite often, you hear people say, this herb's a good for your Kidney energy, but what is Kidney energy? So instead Yin and young it's completely different because the Yin of the Water make you sink, isn't it? The Water go down and the Yang of the Water make you go up, you vibrate and so make you move. So what the Kidney do is reserve, Kidney reserves your body energy, your heat, because they call the steam, the Water is called a steam. And then they reserves your heat that make things a moving and then transform to wood, because the Water create a wood. But if Water is all frozen, they are hard to create any of these. When they say Yang in the Water, and then the Wood start to grow. So this is the relation of that Wood thing Water create wood.
It'll be warm. We warm up the Water. We create vapour that can rise up to the liver.
That's right. It's not that it has to rise up to liver the make the Water runny, so the liver. What they do is that when they evaporate, they go up to the sky. Isn't it? That in the Water. So that's our Lung . That's in organ, that's our Lung . A Lung is like our sky and in the small world. And then the Water rising up where the Lung does like the sky does they can gather the Water. And then when they do it, they give us a rainfall. So they gave a moist to all over the world. And that's what your Lung that's exactly. So Lung get us all the moist from the Kidney rising. And then Lung also does is a separate from the bad/good, or what do you call it? A turbid and the fresh. So they gave us a fresh rain and that makes your body fresh.
We'll talk about Kidney . That's what is in Yin side and Yang side of Kidney . So what the spirit do with the Kidney Yin and young is your Yang of the spirit to get govern the Water we call that enduring. What they do is because a Kidney actually is Water. Water really can hold on anything, absorb anything, but then it pushes everything. It can actually destroy everything. How does steam like Metal and the storms and the Water can destroy them, isn't it? But on the other hand, Water is the softest thing. So it actually takes everything. Anybody can go in there. Isn't it? Anything can get into it. So that's the Water. So what happened is if you have good Kidney energy, you tend to bury a lot of things. You can handle a lot of things. And if you don't have a lot of Kidney energy, you can't hold on anything. You look at everything you think that's too big for me. So you don't have the Kidney Yang energy, but if you don't have a Kidney Yin energy, of course you dry it out. Yes.
So that's the Kidney . Kidney is a Water organ. So it's a Yin in nature. So what they most like is a Yang Qi. A lot of people say your Kidney deficiency very rarely is your Kidney Water Yin deficient, because unless you don't drink and you drink, you got Kidney Water really. But if not hold Water, is Yang problem. But sometimes that your Water is that ge a so slow and rotting, but that's complicated. That's not just your Water problem, that's your soil problem because the Water is not bounded. so there're no banks and they flooded everywhere. And of course your problems. It's all linked. That's why we call it the soil.
To spleen, to clean it up. [crosstalk]
We get it from the liver, which is the wood, and now we'll go backward. Okay. And what create the Woodis the Water and what creates the Water is the metal. And then that's kind of a people feel very difficult to understand how the Metal create the Water, isn't it? Because of Metal have this nature gather the things. They're kind of a concentrate, isn't and then they separated the pure, the cleaner, so that's what Metal's kind of nature. So if you put a Metal outside and you find in the humid, they all running Water, isn't it? Especially the cold, you can see the Water or running outside. So that's what I do that draw the kind of moist. And then they gave them around Water. So they create Water. That's what Metal create the Water in the nature as well.
Like there're stones and you find all the rivers with the stones, because they gather them them and then they make them separate them, clean them and leave them running. So that's what your Lung s, because of your Lung s gathers Qi, air and then gathers moist in the body and in the whole system is actually acting as a gatherer, hold everything together. So that's why you get Qi so you body actually in the one piece rather than floppy. So if you see somebody very floppy, you find themselves can't breathe very well. So what happened is it's a Lung metal. It doesn't work well. So you body is not gathered and it's kind of sloppy. That's what it gets. So that's what the Metal does and middle actually we say in naturally, how does it, they gathering so they're kind of dry, so they liked the Water. And I mean, they, they gathers those moist. They collect the moist and then they`cannot dry. So if you have a Lung Metal indeficient, you don't gather the moist and you get a very high fever because you can have dry cough and the sore throat and a fever start because you body it got too hot. And then if you go to a Lung Metal or Yang deficient or problems, I don't like to say deficient because the most time some people ask me, what's the deficiency and damage. I used two words; damage and deficient. Deficiency doesn't imply you got a kind of a disease. It's not rotten. It just weak in that site. But when you have damage, that means that the function is got something else in there, like a rubbish in there or darkness or there's something blockage.
So it's a more damage and that's what Metal does. So when the Yang is deficient, you get a mucus, you cough and you get thick and you body even smell, odors, because your Lung is not giving you fresh, separate the turbid and the freshness. And then in the body, other senses, they use the Lung actually get the things together and the separate them. So then use a large intestine to dispose all the waste. That's what we do the poo, which is our body's kind of waste. And also they dispose from the skin. So that's why in the Nei Jing says that the Lung actually controls your skin. In my book, I actually talk about skin represent all organs as well. So each organ have problems or showing skin as well. But that's one Metal and what created the Metal is soil. We all know, that isn't that? So soil actually got up. People translate this as earth. I don't like to use nice earth because earth is like the whole globe, but soil is just...
Yeah, exactly. I get that.
That's soil. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.
It is that actually. So the soil, what soil does is soil actually sticky at her [inaudible 00:00:18:13]. So everything gets them to the soul. That's what the soil is nature. So, when the Yang of the soil it's loosening kind of like separately. So when you actually have things into the soil and you'll find that they take everything. They're not like metal. Metal is gathering, kind of consolidate them, but soil just take everything. And now what they do is that process now. So then they process them into whatever. So what it does in your body. The soil does is that you take all the food into the soil, isn't into your soil organ, which we call the Spring soil. And then what it does is they separate from, I mean, not separate, they process them. So then into all your organs need.
So they make into what you need. I mean, people say nutrition, you have to eat certain things. You don't because the soil actually have collect all the information as well, not as collecting, what do you call the food or things. And they collect all information from all of your organs to say what they need. And then it processed food and supply it to make the Yin and the Yang kind of a balance into certain parts of the body. So if your Kidney need the most, they probably kind of gathers, kind of sorted out most things that supply to the Kidney and if you kind of wherever you need it, it's actually processed there. So, that's what I call sorting you know, sorting out. So why is [inaudible 00:02:04]. That's what soil does.
So if you have problems with the soil, I mean, apart from the food you... Can't take, if your Yang of the Yin soil problem, you just don't want to eat this. You can't take things eat. And then if your soil is not a processing and then not sorting, and you find you eat but you get hot, thick coat all the time, you feel sluggish and you don't have the enough taste of the food. You might have taste of food, sorry. You just don't feel fresh and after eating you just feel heavy. So if you don't really have, if you have a Yin problem of the soil, you do actually have trouble to taste the food because your organs are not really telling your body what they need. Yeah so, that's you just don't know and you can eat, but you just don't know what is right for you.
So you don't get the message yeah, properly. Yeah. So the body in the emotional thing as what we call the soil. Soil is the reason, like the reasoning, because of they have all the message coming to you and then it's sorting out thi and then they're sorted out, work out what all this message is about. So I called them the reasoning. And this is, if you have a problem, you know how the people do like that. They have so much things and they just feel their head is too heavy. So they don't know, they can't work out things. So, that's when the Yang problem, when there's a Yin problem you just can't receive. You don't really know the message.
Yeah. You just finished talking about the the reasoning Ju
Yeah. Reasoning Ju . Yeah. I called them my Ju.
That's right. That's will. You know, reasoning will, you could say, but I call them a Ju because it's not just the will. It's about more meaning. It's like sometimes it's not what you will, what you wish to do, but it is like inbuilt, you just want to be proud. It's not your will to be your wish to be proud but you kind of that's all your nature is, so we call that Ju it's like, you stand for, you can't help yourself. Yeah.
That Ju being essentially the been the spirit of each organ that you've been talking about.
That's right. Yes, and so when we talk about the soil the Ju that's what the spirits actually using the Spleen soil to kind of act in their reasoning. The reasoning took out the Yin and Yang. They ying make you kind of receiving and the Yang make your working out what they all mean. So yeah, that's the soil. And the back after the soil, it's the fire. Yeah. I mean, what goes backward? Because we came from the woods. It's easy to talk this way. Yeah. So, when we say fire. Yeah. That's right fire. Fire is your Heart . Yeah. Because we say we got all this heat in the body, isn't that where they come from, it's come from the nature and is maintained by the nature. So how you get this heat? It's not, I mean, we say we've got a food and a we burn.
It's not true. As soon your spirit goes, you don't burn, isn't it. You don't have the heat. So it's your spirit that actually connect your body with the nature and that with the sun, the moon and the nighttime, that's why you need to cover up because of spirits resting. So it needs you hold on to what you get in the day, so that your time and spirits open. I mean your Heart actually got a Yin and Yang. The Yang actually release to get the spirit out. So the spirit make your body active and you connect to the world and you're interacting with each other. And the nighttime spirits go inside and they rest. So that's what a Heart does, Heart in kind of the ground. So it makes you hold back and the Yang make your rise. So the spirits up, and that's when you're acting.
So that's what the Heart majorly do. That's why we say the house of your spirit. Yeah. That makes your body kind of warm, make your body active. When you're active, you tend to create a heat. Isn't it? So that's because your spirit and the make your active, make you kind of strong and then make your rice heat. Yeah. So, but then of course, if you're done really reserve a lot of heat in the Kidney , when you create this heat, you don't just expense spend it. It's like have a bank. That's in your Kidney , Kidney . I always tell people I say your bank. So if you drink a lot of freezing cold Water, you use your banking savings to warm up that Water and that kind of yeah, drain a little bill. I always say that fill the Waterville that they're heating the Fire bill is a lot...
A lot cheaper than the body's Kidney Water heat bill. Where we got to actually the fire. Yeah. So, that's what a Fire does. And then if you, I call this a spirit to control your Heart fire. I called them aspiring Ju. It's like you aspired to do things. You kind of have a lot of desire. You're active and you're bright and you can see your eyes actually kind of light. That's why you actually see something you really like to do. So we said, this is your desire. That's where your Heart Yang Fire and the Yin make your ground says, don't go mad, don't go. Like you see something I want to buy all of it, and then you're what do you got the Yin side of that, the aspiring Ju is saying, no be careful with your money.
So then ground you down and to make you calm. So when is it make you're active, when it make you calm so that's what it does. Yeah. So if you find that lot of people when we call them a Heart broken in English. Isn't that? So, so called a Heart broken is your Yang of the Fire damaged. Your Heart Fire damaged. So then you just look, everything bland. You don't really have any desire. You just lost yourself. Yeah. But when in that kind of cases, what I do is that I use your Kidney , our warm your Kidney . I use a lot of foods. These things make the Fire actually make the Heart fire, the body of the Fire kind of warm. So they're helping, what do you call that aspirant Ju. Your helping your Fire spirit to, to perform.
So, and then also you ground this Fire into the Kidney s. So then you gave them a support, sort of give them a lasting kind of heat. So gradually they feel back to themselves and that they're running again. So that's how you work with the spirit and the body. Yeah. I mean, people think oh, that's only the spirit, but you work because it's spirit and body inseparable. When is separated the body will die and rot away and the spirit of become ghost. So it's, don't know where to go and lets your journey finish and you know where you go. So, that's a fire. And then what create Fire is the wood. So we come back to this cycle. So it Woodcreate fire, Fire create the soil, soil create the Metal and Metal create the Water and Water get back to work.
So, that's how every organ is in the body. So then you may say, what about my arm, what my fingers? So your fingers or your arms, it all have this, a five elements as well. So every five organs control every part of the system. Yeah. So if you say you're tense your tight muscle, then we say, okay, maybe your liver WoodYin have a problem. Isn't it? But if you actually have say rash or something on your arm then what we say is a liver WoodYang damage because your liver actually is your blood ocean, it's all of your body blood. And then when liver WoodYang damage, you blood does flow free. So that's why you get the problems with the, what do you call them? That blood problems. When you see the rashes it's always Blood stagnation. Yeah. Stagnation. So we called them liver WoodYang damage. Yeah. Always.
And I really liked in your book, you're taught like you really, you, you were talking about the blood vessels and this really allowed me to drop in to see the liver would medicine to be that Yang is that a erectness of the blood vessel as if we have no yin, we run the blood runs too hot. But as soon as you bring in that Yin and that suppleness and that bend to the vessels, all of a sudden there's more of like a babbling brook and they can cool down.
That's how it is. Yeah. That's yeah. That's basic five so-called the five elements and the five organs and then controls your body sickness. Yeah. I mean, any sickness, you give you any kind of example, you can include these five elements in the Yang side and the way you work that out and you can choose your acupuncture points or you can actually using your herbs. And yeah, you'll find.. Because in one of the blog, I think I write about how you recognise herbs. I mean, people, we were educated in the university says all this spirit of herb or they called Shen Nong...
You know, like what they translated is he actually carried a little where you had a picture, carry a little basket and go around in the nature and the collecting herbs and the tasting herb's. And it says the three times he almost died and it's all, that's all lies because the Shen Nong is the emperor. How could he actually carry a basket to go around the mountains, asking people? He organised this. But what he did was he didn't really organise these people to go around to see what people using for herb. Because a lot of people don't know enough herbs why does he? How can he get all this message information? In fact, he sent the scholars out who actually going to testing or collecting or watching how animals and all the herbs are growing. And then they separate them into yinyang wuxing nature. And then they can use say I think I saw one of your herbs or two.
That's Eucommia everybody. Yeah.
Yeah. And then it says, it's very kind of it's good for your so-called Kidney . And they're also good for your bones and the muscles. Isn't it? So what you do is that if you're actually kind of peeling the skin and you're breaking them, it's got that kind of fine fibre and the really elastic that's what actually works on your liver. It's a give you liver Woodkind of a Yang and Yin because it's a flexible, that outside is a firm is hard and they grow in the cold areas. Yeah. Generally they don't like, like Queensland weather, and yeah they liked the colder places. So what they do is when you actually Yang, you like yin. So they actually kind of warm things. So that's the way they strengthen your bones. So Kidney controls the bones. So that's why we say that actually help your Kidney .
Yeah. Give you the flexibility as well as the strength of the bones. Yeah. So yeah. That's how you're actually watching all the herb. So then when you got this problem, you say, okay, well I'll have this, but of course, a lot of things that have different degrees. I like to use a lot of herbs, which they call the poisonous. It's not because they poison it's because they got strong kind of a yinyang nature. So when we talk about poison is not talking about like a Western terms of poison for more, formaldyhde, benzene, that's absolutely poison. And then you can't get away that not benefit from it. But when we say poison, it's like, they go the strong yinyang nature. So if you like a actonite, fu zi what we'll call it (inaudible). That gives you so much heat. And if you're overtaking can dry up and you die, of course, and you get a spasm and then you kind of, you got rid of all your moist and then you die.
It does. But when you're actually eating them properly and processing properly, it just beautiful power. And I use that. And I like, because that gave you absolutely desirable strength to correct the sickness. So if somebody freezing cold, I mean, cold. It's not just you feeling cold, but internally cold, like everything, not running, people get a blue lips and the blue toenails, everything. So that means that you're, there's nothing flowing. Isn't it?
There's not enough heat. You use that. It's so useful because I say most of the problems is your lack of a Yang team, the heat, because your body is Yin and most of your problem is the Yang problem. You don't have enough power, enough strength. We all desire power. Isn't it? In every way. So that's actually I like those kind of herbs and also some herbs. I mean, that's most people say my tastes not very good because all my formula is so strong. It's because there's some of the herbs, like a myrrh and frankincense it's got that kind of really terrible taste, but they get so beautiful to clean up your blood, blockage. Like if you had a, it's I called my liver WoodYang herbs it very beautiful to help your blood flow smoothly and it cleaner.
Yeah. That was the myrrh and frankincense, you said? Yes. Yes.
So that kind of things. And the myrrh and frankincense.
Yeah. So it's that kind of things. And [inaudible 00:36:04] doesn't have any kind of too strong effect. So they don't really hurt at all. I think that you can actually making the little tablets every day having been it's definitely good for you cleaning up, but yeah,
a bit of a tonic.
Hmm. Yeah. Oh, it's it's yeah. Well, one we called tonic and I kind of a field. Yeah. What is tonic? Everything is tonic.
Yeah you're right.
Everything make your body flow is tonic. And when you need it, it helps you flow. That's tonic, isn't it. But so, there's no bad herb or good herb to me but, some herbs like a Ginseng. I call them because they're so they're strong, they're good. But then at the same time, it doesn't give you any kind of off the balance. Those herbs, so you could say them tonic, actually. Yeah. You can just, long-term taking them. And without any problems, like food, almost like food, they just don't taste as good as food, but then they act like a food. Yeah. So those things you could say are tonic and they actually benefit every parts of your body. And also like a liquorice, that goes your wuxing organs and also help you kind of breaking down any kind of problem, harmonise. It's kind of a soft up of any poisons, anything, any in your body. So you don't call them tonic. Yeah. That's
We could have, we could, because we, we love the tonics here. We love the tonic herbs.
Or you could say they're tonics, yeah. I think that's the kind of, yeah.
I think it's a good distinction you make there that anything used appropriately can all of a sudden become a tonic because you're using it within its,you know, within its yinyang wuxing nature. That's right. Yeah. It will bring life.
That's right. Yeah. Yes. And especially I would call it. Actonite is a beautiful, tonic is a strong strongest tonic, but of course you got to take a little bit of careful. So you will not really kind of using them. Like you, don't [not, 00:02:20], I mean like some people, if they have a bit of, you got to know the body condition like that. And then you may not talk about it as the general tonic, like, say, you can just eat, but I'll definitely say that's a very strong tonic. Yeah. But some herbs like, like Ginseng I'm talking, it doesn't give you, it doesn't matter what your body condition, you take it, it's always nice. So, I mean, in the modern sense, you say that's tonics, you know? Yeah.
Yeah. But I mean, even with, because we're taught, like, what we were talking about before was with, with the Shen Nong for Everyone, I do encourage everyone quite often, I'll remind everyone again, it's nice to have a few of them the Shennong Divine Farmer Materia Medica. I believe, well, the pronunciation Shennong Ben Cao Jing.
Yeah. That's right. Ben Cao Jing. Yeah.
Ben Cao Jing. Ben Cao Jing, I think is how they say it's a translation. I'd like everyone to have a copy or two, if they're interested in that's where we see, as you were saying, the poison inferior herbs, the regular herbs, and the superior herbs.
Yes. That's right, yes. Yes. The superior herbs. Yes. There's no damage and there's no problem. Yeah.
But even with the ginseng, I mean, as you said, we call it ginseng or (inaudible), like a tonic. However, there's still always going to be, you know, a time when it's not appropriate or a time when you... So therefore you've needed to put understanding of the herb in order to ensure that it stays a tonic and not harmful, folks. So you're never going to not...yeah.
It's like ginseng. I mean, it generally good, but sometimes you're taking them when it's not, so-called, appropriate. It's not really kind of correct to your condition in not, you don't notice anything. You just feel like you waste your can put into the soil, the soil say that's not needed. So it's probably the way or get rid of them as a waste, you know? Like, so that's how, how, how things are, you know, like sometimes like say when you're so thirsty a drop of Water, you appreciate so much, isn't it? But when you don't need too much and you have it, you just feel all "ahh", holding onto your stomach. You think I'll having, 'm drunk , you know? So everything got a kind of, yeah, you got to understand the, the concept of the yinyang wuxing and your body. And then you can actually work them better.
Well, and that's, and that's why, you know, at SuperFeast, that's why we focus on the superior herbs because there are herbs that people can engage with without causing damage to the body. But what I like about them is, as you said with Water, you know, if you're, if you're not thirsty and you're hydrated and all of a sudden you drink a lot of Water, you'll feel something without doing much damage, but you will learn-- you'll also learn something about your body and you'll learn something about the elements. So you've done no damage. And you've learned about how, you know, how to look after yourself, which is, that's what I like about superior herbs as well.
Well, that's very important, but that also, when you talk about this herbs, like yeah, individual herbs, you can actually make them like, say superior and inferior or whatever. But if there's herbs, formulas, if you make it into a formula and you can actually balance them all and the benefit, all of the things,you know, like in my book, I've got this RCN formula and which,you know, like the Kidney , Kidney formula, Kidney energy yeah. That's, that's basically balances every part of the body and the people taking them, like every daily things, because it, it just help you reserve your heat, helps you reserve your energy.
Well, this is where I like your book. I mean, I've read a lot about the five elements,you know, which I know is even that translation doesn't really do justice to what we're talking about with the wuxing organ or organ system. And what I really, really love about this continue as I, as I learn more and more about the elemental cycle, is that when we think about the liver physical anatomy, the organ, yes, of course I can get my hands under my liver and under my ribs and I can feel my physical organ. But when I drop into my body, when I get out of my head and stop thinking about anatomy, when I drop into my body, I can't think about this reductionist organ. I can't isolate it. I can't feel isolation.
I can't feel necessarily phase one and phase two. But, when I come, because ,that's a very stagnant system, when I come fully into the yinyang wuxing cycle, I can really get a sense of the quality of Woodinternally.
Yes. And then you feel freer thinking, that's why I'm really against this so-called modernised or what they call the modern Chinese medicine because they using this anatomy. And they actually limit your thoughts, because when you're thinking about anatomy and you're thinking about the materials and you don't think about a spirit part, and you don't think about the cooperation and you don't think about, and then if you say "My arm got a problem", or "I've got a rash" and you think about rash rather than thinking about what is going on in the wuxing organs, isn't it. So then you limited yourself and then you try to find the so-called herbs that cure rash. And then when it doesn't work and you're going to find another one, you're going to find another one. And whose is it for?. I mean, individually, you might going to try everything and after a while you just give up, because you're just going to disappointed.
Then you go to Western medicine and, but, if you stop thinking that you're thinking about a blood, you thinking about that this rash as a blood not flowing. So then you thinking about a liver with Yang damage and you suddenly thought, "Oh, what actually makes the woot erect?" And you start looking at the herbs and you start looking at a surround you and the food, everything. So you're suddenly free and you have a hope and you do have hope and you can find everything around you to help. So that's how important is you have this kind of concept of yinyang Wuxing.
Yeah. It helps so much in a day-to-day level, too, you know. And as you were, you were talking about, you know, your Kidney formula that helps bring a flow to every part of the body. If you're waiting for a symptom, if you're waiting, if you're in a, if you're in an anatomical reductionist mindset, it makes it very difficult to be dedicated and feel that what you are wanting is to support Yin Yang transformation consistently through the body, you don't get attracted to maintaining harmony,
That's right, yeah. And then also you lose power. You lose your own power. So as you say, if you thinking about yinyang wuxing, you suddenly connect yourself to the whole world, whole nature, and you suddenly feel freer. You don't waiting for the drug company, give you information, what the drugs do or something, and you suddenly thinking, okay, everything surround me. "What things can help me?" And you really do freer and you become active and you become emotionally. You're not going to be too sad, and just waiting there to tell you, then tell you how long you're going to live and what condition you're going through. All that. Yeah, you absolutely can convert that problems. Every problem, all kind of problem. If you're thinking about that nature where you can, a lot of people feel very difficult belief because, I had a patient and then she got home with all the herbs once. And then her son was telling her: "Mum, you just going backyard and collecting all this rubbish and then you boiling up and your drinking.
And I said to her, and then, so when he came, I said, "You think you can just go into the shops and buy these little chemical drug and you take, you don't even know what it is. And I said, do you have absolutely any idea what's in there or what they do? You just got to trust. Isn't it? I said, I'd rather trust, nature than trust all those people." Because quite often these drugs, they, they kind of telling you one thing, but it's only about it. You know, you do a PhD for three years, isn't it? Three, four years maximum. And then you, you, you announce something. It says, Oh, I had this, rats test or something. And that developed this, something, something. And then for that life, you're not people don't live like rats in a few years. We'll live like a 70,80.
Now people even like, you know, 90 years. You don't know in 20 years down the time, if you actually 30 and 20 years' time, you have a problem with this. It's only about a, what do you call it? A 50's and irreversible, or the problem happens. So I say, I definitely trust nature better because you're part of nature. Really? You thinking a lot of people, I mean, I, once actually there was somebody, I can't remember her name, very famous for, you know, television or radio person. And then she said, "Yeah, I wonder where we come fro. You know, you come from the earth and the heaven, earth, soil, create you. That's what it is." We were kind of almost like isolate ourselves so much from nature. And now we're thinking we come from somewhere else. But if you're thinking about yourself, you do come from nature, whatever the problem you have, it's in the nature. Of course, the chemical things that we created and damage ourselves, but still there's nature way to get you corrected. So you got to look for it. I mean, there's always that.
I love it! Before we go. Just wanted to touch on one last little piece that I think is really important when discussing yinyan wuxing. Yeah. And then I'll let you go. And then I'm going to have to ask you back on the podcast to talk about herbs. Just a little distinction that I think what has happened as a hangover from the colonisation of Chinese medicine and Western medicine thinking is that when we talk about liver Yang Qi and Yin Qi that people, and I'll just speak for myself, I've had to really work, to not relate to, okay, I have Yin Qi I have damaged or low Yand Qi. And now I just need to increase the Yin Qi so that I've got my Yang Qi and I've got my Yin Qi in the liver. I put them on the shelf in my liver and then I'm healthy, cause I've got both those things, but it's a transformation.
That's right. That's right. So you can't really just thinking, "Oh". I mean, sometimes it's like that, like say, I eat something really bad and you suddenly get a, you know, like a kind of a diarrhea or even poison feeling. You know, you feel really bad, you just give a big cleanup herb. So, so get the, you know, get rid of the rubbish and the Yang is rising again, and then you fine, and that kind of a single problem is like that. But if it's something a bit deeper and the more problems, like a, almost a little bit of chronic and you can't work on that, you got to think about it, say, okay, you've got to cut him off. Of course, you know, the rotten trees, the rotten fruit, rotten things, you got to cut them off. Otherwise they do kind of affect the tree regrow and sometime they drop off anyway.
But other times that you got to cut off. So how do you cut off? It's not operation, you've got to use the herbs. So which I kind of strong and get rid of a poison, you know, like sometimes a little bit of harsh or some herb's a little bit of poisonous even, you know, get rid of the rubbish. And then on the other hand, what you do is that you got to support your body to regrow. Isn't it? Regrow that liver wood. So what do you do? You work on the Kidney , you work on the heat in the Kidney . So you get a Water kind of flow and you get the nutrients grow. So that's when you actually get the liver recovered. So that's how you do. But also sometimes, you know, a lot of people I used to see, because I think I had quite a good practise and I had a lot of people refer, but often you're not
People come in with very complicated problems. Very few people come to me just for flu or something. I love those because you gave a few packet, they gone, they finished. But quite often, you get very complicated cases and all mess up. And then some people come to me say, "I can't take any herbs. I take it. I react. You know, I get a very bad feelings, even food, and I'm just sensitive to everything." So what are you going to do with this kind of things is so what we say, your soil, you're not soaking up. Everything is too messy. So what are you going to do? You got to loosen the soil, gets things moving a bit. So you don't really treat the regional problem and you treat the soil, you get the soil loosened, you get all the things sorted out who belong to who, and then, you know, and then you sat working on that side.
So it's... Yeah. It's all.
Sorry. It's all kind of connected interconnected. That's why wuxing can't be separated no, but say, if you have a or you just lack of Water, you pass out, what do you do? You can Water. And that's very simple problems, but once things are connected or complicated, like a flu, some people get a cough, you know, really bad cough. And then in my book, I think I had this case and that it just can't get over it. And then you have all kinds of a Lung herbs it's not working. So what do you do is that you work on the soil because soil create the metal. So you got to actually help them get a soil rising and then get the, what do you call that metal? Get the Lung metal, new metal. So then you work along that way and the school. And sometimes you, you know, your liver problems and you actually work on Lung because the Lung controls the, what do you call Lung Metal controls the liver wood. So you can have use Metal herbs and to chop off some of the, you know,bad wood.
Yeah. Getting rid of some of the putridness.
So all these herbs are very real, this philosophy, and this theory in a clinical practise is very, other say, direct help. You can't get away. And when you work on that, it's just so it's freer. Yeah.
That's all we want. Like, that's something again, like you go, well, let's remove the blockage or restore the ability to create so that we are back into, into a flowing of harmony of, oh, what you that's. The other thing I wanted to bring up is that the Qiqua continues to be of a transformation for me because it's like, we're not just trying to restore a Qi.
Patient for me because it's like, we're not just trying to restore a Qi in restoring Qi it is non-stop Qihua so we'll finish on this I think it's a nice distinction.
Yeah. What is Qiqua you know if you, actually learned the [mandarin language 00:54:20] , have you heard that, the [mandarin language 00:54:19] this is the one which I have to talk about it, which I'm writing in this course, it's called the [mandarin language 00:54:29] it's the yun it's you know yunqi. You've heard about Yunqi it's like a luck people say it's luck but it's not. It's the sun movement, sun position on earth and the time that created this atmosphere, that's called the Qi. And how this Qihua how this changes is the Yin and the Yang kind of meeting together. If you talk about [mandarin language 00:01:02] I think it's got the oldest, lots of your kind of terms-
which is the time of the earth, you know, like a time movement of the earth, which is time we call the time. And that actually kind of work with the sun position and create these atmosphere, the qi, weather. So this weather changes it's called follow this wuxing cycle, you know, from Spring to summer and to really hot heat, and then to dampness, and then to, what do you call them? Dry Autumn and try the cold Winter. So that's kind of what they call the little qi. We call the liuqi. This six Qi is the dry is the Metal and the Water the cold is the Water. And then the Spring is what we call the Wood the you know, in the early Spring is the wood. And then the rising heat, which we call the [foreign language 00:56:09] , like a main heat, the initial heat. And then there's a, [foreign language 00:56:14] which is called a spreading heat. And this is the six Qi where the Fire has two parts. One is initial and one is spreading. So this, after all, it's a five qi, this is the circulation of the Qi and that's called a qihua from one transformed to the other. It's called a qihua. Yeah. That's how it is. Yeah.
And if we get into that flow, then we can enjoy life.
Yeah because it always says that so-called this qihua is following so-called the season, but in your body actually this qihua actually there's this qihua. I just writing because very confusing one part because they suddenly changed a position and then people can't understand, because it always say day and night is a combined creator something it's like, say, you know, your, what do you call that Water? You know, all the wood, say, for example, your trees, if you only have the daytime, you don't have nighttime it doesn't really go isn't it? So it's actually night and day joined together and then create the wood. So there's certain position, certain time. So that's what we call the [inaudible 00:57:36], which is again too many new terms. [laughing 00:57:36] But that's how the qihua come from. That's how the Qi and how the change, how the transformation is about. Yeah. That's a it's a, what do you call that? It's kind of a field there's for thousands of years I will say I'm reading all kinds of books nobody explained the way, because in the old times, maybe that's just like a common sense.
So they don't have to explain a lot of things in detail, but to us now, we,re just lost because they say this, and you're saying, why this come from? Where are they from? You just don't understand it's like when you're using computer, you know, you tap tap and everything come up and you say, how did this derive? And you don't know because we're so used to this. And now we think we're just using them, but we don't really care about the initial. And then you can't develop it. So good mathematics. Mathematician has to go through this from one plus one, or, you know, dividing and plus, they have to go through these steps. So rather than just using computer and to get the result. So this has being a hard work for me.
I'm trying to explain them the way that we can understand. It's like a one plus one, how this come from and you got to, I mean, there's a result there, but we don't have the steps coming from. So I'm trying to work through this. It's like a, [mandarin language 00:05:02] you know a lot of people say [mandarin language 00:05:05] is like a five, you know, heavenly, stance but really it's the position of the sun because in the book of a change, you know, they say it's position and time, everything is a position time that's what the book of change is about, time and position. That's how you are, you know, because you're born here and in this time, that's crazy if you put your Yin like another place, you'll be different, isn't it?
So they'll be all different. Like, yeah. So everything is a position and time. So what is the position? Position is the same position to the earth that gave you the position. If we didn't have the sunrise sundown, you want to have a sense of position. There's no position. It's not everything be the same, isn't it in the back.
So that's position and that's what we call the [phase said in mandarin language 01:00:06] and the [foreign language 01:00:06] is the time. So I worked this out and then there's not many people really talk about that directly. So I actually explained everything like that book of change, and also about the [mandarin language 00:06:21] and the, you know, this [inaudible 01:00:22] called the [foreign language 01:00:22] it's all about this time and position, and that's how you treat the people and treat them, you know, choosing your point choosing herb's. So, yeah, anyway.
Well, no pressure because I know it's going to take a little bit of time, but well we're waiting, we've got a lot of people that told us they're going to be waiting for that course, but we're patient that's okay. We know. Well, because you've got the step of doing the de-colonisation, which is huge. And, and that's something I really appreciate your time.
I'm glad that you did because of that took me eight years to get that down. But now I feel thinking back I say what's all that point to talk about how the change should really just working on energy to say how it really is carried forward with real herbs, real medicine, real healing [laughing 00:07:12] but anyway, it is because if you don't really kind of separate yourself from this modern and this [inaudible 01:01:21] you lost yourself, you can't go back to the roots unless you're really careful understand this is, you know, you push this off, then you can clearly know where your role is. Yeah. One so your listeners actually wrote to me and said that she wants to going to study Chinese medicine, you know, like become a practitioner. And she said, "Which of your book should I read?", I said that the first book will prepare you not to get a poisoned by them.
And the second book, give you a clue how the real medicine should go. And now I say, you get this ready and then you go into the course and you might not get yourself too confused and too damaged. Yeah. I mean, at the moment, people has to go through this course to get a qualification to be able to practise. But in the future, I think we're going to have a set up a new practise again, we call the Yi practise which is not governed by this Chinese medicine. So like when Chinese medicine first started, there's no recognition there is nothing, but we were freer, well, alternative healing, but now they've become a complimentary. So it's not really powerful anymore. So we're going to set up a new one, which I call the Yi-practise and we're not going to govern by name so we're going to set up all this our way. [Laughing 01:02:42] That's if I get there anyway,that's the aim, because I want this, the Yi to be stand on it's own again rather than to be kind of a, what do you call set? Like a hot, somehow got to hold on to somebody else to do it because we were independent kind of healing system. Yeah. Can't be combined. It's not the same thing. Yeah.
No, it's not. Yeah. It's not. Yeah. It's not some little novelty on the side to be complimentary to western medicine.
Plus it's very very powerful, it's not really, I would say it's more powerful and the safer than drugs and cheaper really. I mean-
So much cheaper.
Oh so much cheaper. Really you just have a little bit bottle of tablets, the herbal tablets, or you have a package of herb's and people say, oh, $20, $30 a day but then you know how much drugs you're going to take and how much expensive is that? And how much environmental damage and how much really it's what do you call it? Animal tests, all these things go on. It's just terrible really.But anyway, I won't go through that. [laughing 01:03:53]
Now we're going to get to that. I mean, just the amount of disease that's going to get prevented because people get into a mindset of continuation and harmony and-
Yes yeah. And it's powerful really. It's not a yeah. Somebody also wright to me, I think from your course also said you know, before they always thought that, you know, they hear all the talks about how Chinese medicine are not very good and then said that after listening to your podcasts and I realise, actually, I'm so happy that it's powerful kind of a practise. I said it is. Modern Chinese medicine is not powerful because they, they don't have principles you know, they don't have a proper guide and if you have a proper guide this is a very powerful medicine very much.I mean healing. I still try not to say medicine, it's a healing. It's a very powerful healing. Yeah. Very, very good.
So anyway, yes,
Everyone, everyone go out and buy Yinyang Wuxing Spirit, Body, and Healing. This book is amazing. It's one of those ones, buy a couple and go and give it. We've had a lot of acupuncturists listen. And a lot of Chinese medicine students listen to the podcast as well and express how much they've appreciated it. [crosstalk 01:05:20] Talk a lot about how, you know, they felt that. They were trying to come back to the roots-
Not knowing how so it's been nice to provide some guidance as well.
Thank you for your promotion on this [Laughing 01:05:34] because we [crosstalk 01:05:34] we want more people to know [laughing 00:11:38].
Well, that's, I mean, when I got into this, I just wanted to see people not degenerate early in life and have space to evolve and become better people. That's like very simple when I was like all right I like Taoists philosophy and I like the herbs that the Taoists were saying like you're saying, "Oh, you know, these are the superior herbs and they can be used like a food to keep everything rolling and in harmony" I was like, "that's a good outlet" But it doesn't stop there because herb's are such a small part. It's this [crosstalk 01:06:11] it's so much more.
It's all the philosophy and the, even the outlook of life and [crosstalk 01:06:19] everything involved. Yeah and practise as well. Yeah herbs, acupuncture. Yeah, I mean later, maybe while I get my course ready and I can talk to you a little bit more about how acupuncture, how yourself can actually help yourself acupuncture and the knowing a few of the points and the how you can do it. Yeah. Because [crosstalk 01:06:40] yeah, because yeah. Well, for a lot of people, you don't have to know everything about accupuncture. We'll just teach you a little bit, easily point, very easy and the safe points and how you treat the general field problems, very simple ones and all easy ones. But there's also powerful. It's like your tonics.
Like a [inaudible 01:06:59] yeah [crosstalk 01:07:03] . Well, yeah. Medicine isn't to be institutionalised and it's never so complicated that you can do all nothing.
Yeah. Well, for a thousand years in China, medicine healing wasn't the, what do you call it? The institutionalised, wasn't govern. It's the people actually in public, accept you. If you don't work, who's going to see you. And the only way you work, you got the good names and then people will follow you and the people will treasure your skills, you know, and they're always, they call it a scholar physician and then there's also just the technicians. Yeah. I mean, people with a simple problem, maybe you go to a technician and the people actually have a real problem or rich people and they all go to this scholar physicians, and they all know everything about it. You know, like a philosophy, Taoism and Yin and Yang and the wuxing and the book of change all these things and then they become a physician practitioner. Yeah. I mean, scholar, physician. Yeah. So there's a difference in it yeah. But anyway.
It's definitely something worth preserving-
Even if it rather become the dominant medicine, preserving it so it's present on the earth.
Yeah. I wanted it to be a dominant medicine because that will be so good for earth. You know, there will be no poisons to create in the river and in the Water system. and then in the air, it's just good for everybody.
Well, let's hold that vision will allow our spirits to shine through our organs and help that vision. [Laughing 01:08:46]. Rhonda thank you so much. We love you and we look forward to having you back on the podcast, whether that's talking about the course or I'd love to just go through and talk about many of the herbs, your favourite herbs as well.
We can actually also talk about some particular cases that you've sometimes you know, you have a people asking, then we talk about how these yinyang wuxing principles actually should guide them into this, the healings and all that. Yeah. I, well, that's kind of a chats. It's good. It's good for my inspiration too, but I keep the acupuncture part I need more time to get my things working out for us. Yeah.
We're not going anywhere.
[Laughing 01:09:40] At school.
We'll wait patiently and I'll just make sure everyone goes and jumps on your newsletter list on your website and also Facebook group yinyang wuxing yi, Y-I.
Yeah. Well, I mean, at the moment maybe people get disappointed because I don't do too much. I just got a feel I'm on the Facebook at the moment are putting on few of, what do you call them? The words at the moment I'm teachng field Chinese classical Chinese words where they come from, what they mean, because this is important for me in the future with the course. If you don't understand the words in that translation, it just doesn't work the same. So eventually I'll be the charts, everything going to be in Chinese. So I want people to know that basic and then later because yeah, you can actually make a translation of charts, but then I feel there's not too many words to learn and if people understand that and they eventually will, you can actually read the Chinese chats, you know, you can go in there to search your own kind of answers for lots of things. So I feel, yeah, that's what I'm doing at the moment. Yeah. My husband doing all this animation and the words [crosstalk 01:11:01] He actually write for me first and as well so I just can, I did a little bit and have a look is right and then maybe I add something up. Yeah. That's all. So we're doing that to get the words going at the moment. Yeah. And-
Hopefully I can get a course of ready soon.
Great. We look forward to it. Okay.
Thank you. Thanks very much .
Good bye for now. Speak to you next time.
Thanks so much. Yeah. Okay. Bye.