Re-Embodying Herbalism in the Age of AI with Stephanie Hazel (EP#222)

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Mason and Stephanie Hazel dive deep into the real talk about herbalism and healing in today's AI-driven world. They kick off by revisiting Stephen Harrod Buhner's "heart perception" and stress how crucial it is to actually feel that connection, especially as AI becomes more prevalent. Stephanie calls out the worrying trend of new herbalists losing touch with plants, often due to a lack of hands-on experience and over-reliance on ready-made formulations. They both hammer home the importance of sensory engagement—tasting, smelling, touching, and truly observing herbs—arguing that this embodied learning sticks with you way better than just theory.

The conversation shifts to the idea of oscillating between rational thought and embodied sensing, emphasizing that true wisdom in healing comes from blending both. Stephanie warns against getting too caught up in hyper-scientific jargon, suggesting that language grounded in sensory experience, like Chinese medicine energetics, is more accessible and effective. They link society's increasing disembodiment to mental health struggles and the addictive pull of digital spaces, offering practical tips for grounding yourself in daily life. Ultimately, they argue that AI's efficiency highlights the irreplaceable human capacity for embodied sensing and intuitive insight in healing, something no machine can replicate.

Timestamps:

• 00:00:34 - Heart Perception & Embodiment: Mason and Stephanie reflect on their previous conversation about Stephen Harrod Buhner's concept of heart perception and the importance of embodying this skillset, particularly in the context of rising AI.
• 00:01:05 - The Elder Tree Podcast & Stephen Harrod Buhner: Stephanie shares how their previous discussion inspired a tribute episode to Stephen Harrod Buhner on her podcast, The Elder Tree.
• 00:03:33 - The Decline of Herbalism & Lack of Embodiment: Stephanie and Mason discuss concerns about the dwindling connection to herbs among new practitioners, often due to a lack of hands-on experience and reliance on pre-compounded formulations.
• 00:07:20 - The Importance of Sensory Engagement with Herbs: Stephanie highlights the crucial role of taste, smell, touch, and observation in truly understanding herbs, arguing that this embodied learning is more memorable and profound than theoretical knowledge.
• 00:10:51 - Oscillating Between Rational and Embodied Sensing: They explore the dynamic interplay between rational analysis and embodied sensing in understanding herbs, emphasizing how a blend of both leads to deeper insights.
• 00:21:26 - Beyond Hyper-Scientific Language in Healing: Stephanie cautions against solely relying on scientific terminology in natural medicine, advocating for language that is grounded in sensory experience and accessible to the body, like traditional Chinese medicine energetics.
• 00:36:21 - The Societal Impact of Disembodiment: The conversation broadens to the wider implications of a lack of embodiment in society, linking it to mental health struggles and the addictive nature of virtual digital spaces.
• 00:40:51 - Cultivating Embodiment in Daily Life: Practical tips are offered for incorporating embodied practices into daily routines, such as mindful engagement with herbal supplements and spending time in nature.
• 00:49:10 - AI and the Future of Healing: They discuss how AI's efficiency in data analysis highlights the unique human capacity for embodied sensing and intuitive insight in healing practices, which AI cannot replicate.
• 01:07:44 - Yarrow and the Wounded Healer Archetype: Stephanie shares a powerful client story illustrating the "leap of insight" in diagnosis, drawing on the mythopoetic story of Yarrow to highlight the importance of non-rational understanding in healing.

Resource guide

Stephen Harrod Buhner's Work: Referenced for his concept of "heart perception" and sensing the metaphysical background of the world.
The Elder Tree Podcast: Stephanie Hazel's podcast, which featured a tribute episode to Stephen Harrod Buhner.
David Abram, Becoming Animal: Recommended for its exploration of grounding analytical thought and language into the senses.
Stephanie Hazel's "The Wild Edge of Herbalism" Course: Mentioned as a way for practitioners and individuals to deepen their relationship with plants and their own intuition, with a "Plant Allies" taster option. The online course starts on August 14th.
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Check Out The Transcript Below:

Mason:

Stephanie, welcome back to the podcast friend of the show.

Stephanie:

At this

Mason:

point,

Stephanie:

yes. My second appearance, I think. Yeah, just like I've had you twice on our podcast, so feeling very crazy.

Mason:

Nice little podcast tennis match we've got going on.

Stephanie:

Yes. And I will just,, apologize in advance. I'm just recovering from the flu that's been going around, so if I'm a bit sniffly or snuffly, even a bit husky in the voice, then that's what's going on.

Mason:

Oh, good. I mean, like soothing. Husky voice and, yeah. Or who cares? Keep it real a little snuffle cus

Stephanie:

Yeah.

Mason:

It's all good., Oh, we said it last time that we delved into heart perception. Talked a lot about,, awakening that skillset,, and I guess embodying that skillset, but maybe didn't really go into what embodiment,, meant in that last period really ties into. Lots of AI stuff coming up, everyone going, what do I do? What does AI do? Mm-hmm. And,, embodiment becomes, a very prevalent, yeah, it's not just the skill, it's like a, it's almost a little initiation in itself. So really looking forward to diving in, talking herbs, talking embodiment, maybe a little bit more heart perception.

Stephanie:

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much. That conversation last time was so,, I think resonant is the word for me. There was just a lot of resonance in the space between us who were talking about Stephen Har B's work and his idea that we have, you know, a kind of, I guess sixth sense which lives in the heart, which is our body ability to sense other beings and to take in information about what he calls the metaphysical background of the world, right? You could call spirit, you could call it,, dream time, lots of things, right. I was so inspired by the conversation we had last time that I then actually hit up my friend Sky to do a,, tribute episode to Stephen Harrod Buhner work. So I would've loved to interview him on my podcast on the Elder Tree. And, he died a few years ago., And so Sky is, she actually teaches his work.

As she runs a course based on his work., So I did a tribute episode on the Elder Tree podcast to Stephen Harrod Buhner. So I encourage people to check that out, if they're fans or they're interested in being fans of his work., She's very articulate and there was a lot of depth and juice in there. Oh, lovely. Yeah, I was, lucky enough, but like back in 2015, he was one of the first people I reached out to back when I had the Mason Taylor show. I absolute that.

Mason:

We re-released it when just after he passed away, we released it on the SuperFeast Podcast. So there you go everyone. It's really,, you know, go and get the books as well. If you are, um, interested in starting to deep dive into, that podcast, that step and I had last time, go listen to those two potties.

Stephanie:

Yeah, amazing. Well, actually, I sat down when I started the Elder Tree podcast with the other girls. I sat down and was like, who's my dream guest? And he was at the top and I was like, oh, I couldn't possibly hit him up. Now I better wait until I feel more confident. And then I think about eight, nine months later, he died. And that was. A good wake up call to me about just like, just reach out, you know? So after I interviewed Matthew Wood, I interviewed Tyson Younger Porter and people who were on that list, I just reached out to them. So

Mason:

it's amazing how often people are willing, to just jump on. I know, he was like, yeah, just call my home phone. And I was sitting there with a mic., I think the audio's so shoddy. I can't even remember how I did it. But he's sitting there on his home phone and I'm plugging that into maybe I was using Zoom or I think I was using Skype or something at the time. But yeah, it was,, definitely good to not be a perfectionist in that moment. Get me interview, get the chat. Yeah.

Stephanie:

Good on you. Maybe you were ball born a bit sier than I am. I've had to learn that along the way.

Mason:

Don worry. I think you've got your strengths. That I definitely envy.,

Stephanie:

So when we were chatting on the day, you were talking about your experience going to the NHAA, the Naturopath and Herbalist Association of Australia. It used to be the National Herbal Association of Australia. I think that change,, yeah, shows the decline of herbal medicine, western herbalism as a dominant,, modality in Australia, and the rise of naturopathy, kind of,, subsuming herbal medicine. Anyway, that's a side point., You were at the NHAA conference recently, . How did you find that?

Mason:

Yeah., In regards, I think it ties in exactly to what we're,, gonna be going into today is that there were a few, I guess like canary in the coal mine., Especially reps, like veteran reps and,, likewise students that were just coming through, the degrees. Some of who, the reps will start there., We're just talking about the rise of., Out of clinic,, herbal, formulations and, you know, herbal compounding is, I dunno if that's even appropriate word. So a lot of practitioners,, didn't even have the herbs within their clinic., That was one thing, and she was saying, therefore the connection to herbalism,, to the herbs themselves was starting to, very much dwindle. She didn't have the wording. As always mentioned, Buhner, she didn't have the wording and she was like, yeah, exactly. That.

If the herb is there within your space and you've spent time tasting it, and thinking about it, even growing it., And I was like, I'm completely there with you. But she was like, wow,, that's rare that even someone who owns a herbal business would know what I'm talking about and share my concern. And then likewise, she was saying the other concern she was seeing, which was really starting to explode, was it was almost like an out of the box. You know, get every single herb in your clinic. And therefore not being able to have a connection to any of them specifically, or not be able to know the intrinsicness of each of them.

And so she was doing a lot of work with practitioners as a rep at that time to talk them down off the ledge to, just have like say,, their core 12 or 15 and then actually take advantage of that compounding and rotate and find those herbs that for them, were the ones that were gonna be like. Minimum,, amount holding, maximum amount of,, usage. Which was with their in alignment,, their clinic. Then the other one was how sometimes students were getting through a degree, and I don't think this is completely, I know this isn't the case for everyone 'cause there's some legend professors that make sure it's not the case. But,, getting through some degrees with zero or absolute minimum tasting the herbs. I think there's a lot of insurance stuff about getting students to try herbs at the moment.

Therefore, they were just coming through with the theory, which, there's something that I, do really respect is with the degree is just, how much theory and categorization they come out with, which is incredible. However, without any connection or without trying it. And a lot of them then going into clinic and then just going straight into using this com offsite compounding and not having any interaction, therefore just theoretically, um,, prescribing these herbs. And that's the one that she was like, this was one rep in particular and a few others. They were almost getting teary when they were talking about it. And I can,, definitely understand. But um. A lot of hope as well in the other direction. A lot of people realizing it, but that was the biggest,, concerns that I saw popping up.

Stephanie:

Mm. Interesting to me that the rep was feeling like teary about it since,, anyway. Yeah. But that it's definitely, a common complaint, the lack of connection with the plants through the degrees. And I had a,, one of my first ever interviews on my podcast was Jackie Bushel, and she's an elder herbalist, a western herbalist. Think she lives somewhere in. Adelaide or something like that. And she had been a lecturer for many years and she quit when she got in trouble for bringing a live plant into the room, into the classroom. One of these legendary professors and her, she, they said, oh, that's not what we do. We don't have the insurance. And she's like, well, oh,

Mason:

that was insurance. Is that, that's the reason they gave is insurance. She kind of have a live for Herb in them.,

Stephanie:

Yeah. And she's like, I'm not teaching herbalism where I get reprimanded. For bringing herbs into a classroom. Right. And I hear that again and again and again from herbalists, from students, from teachers that, that lack of. Physical or embodied connection to the plants. Right. And I think you were saying before, you know when you only have,, when you have a hundred, I'm looking at like 200 bottles of tincture here, and you can't have a relationship with that many herbs unless you've been practicing for 60 years. Maybe after 60 years you can have slowly chipped away at really knowing each of those plans. As you said, the intrinsicness, right? That special property that each plant holds, and that's a property that yes, we can read about. Yes, we can read the data and the science and the history, but also each of those herbs have stories. They have.

Lands that they come from that tell you a story like in they have a, we got microclimates environmental niches that they thrive in that teaches our animal body something very clear when you taste the herbs, there's all the flavors and the way that our tongue is actually an exquisite biochemicals sensory device. Right. Like we've designed all these microscopes and all these other scientific sensory devices, but we have some very powerful sensory devices of our own. The sensors, the tongue, the smell, the eyes, the fingertips, right? Like if you. Take a bunch of different herb powders. So you mainly work with powders. If you go and you rub each of the herbs between your fingers, there will be a difference in the texture and the sensation.

And if you pay attention, even if someone know anything about herbs, but they were embodied and able to be present and to be open, there would be something that you would learn about those herbs just from the way that they rub between your fingers. Right? And there's so much. Data that we are taking in through our animal body, through our sensory selves, that is sublingual. That is like not happening at the level of the prefrontal cortex. Right? It's not happening at the language model. Right. We're talking about language models and ai, right? That, that so much we're taking in and that happens when we are working with a herb in a garden, in a clinic. When we are mixing it, you're seeing the different colors. I've had students even start taking photos of the way that the different tinctures that we are working with. Ones, they don't even know what they are.

Taking photos, or little videos of how that tincture moves in the glass of water when you put 10 drops in and the different herbs move differently. And so even if you can't rationally be like, oh, this means X. There's something that your animal body, your sensory self is taking in and learning about that plant. And because it's, it's happening in the body, it's something that you'll remember. You could read a million little tidbits about different herbs and you will remember a small fraction of it, especially in this time when we are just data overloaded. Right. How many little snippets of information, insights, life hacks did you come across yesterday? Probably like 300. You know? Do you remember them? Probably not, but the body remembers in a different way, and so when we are denied the opportunity to. See a herb growing in its native environment. See a herb growing in our garden.

See how it dries when we dry it? See how it behaves in the tincture. See what color it goes. Taste it, smell it, feel it. Then we are denied the opportunity to do all of this exquisite and subtle learning through the body.,

Mason:

The oscillation between rational and embodied,, sensing., I think that's something I've definitely been guilty of. Uh., Losing myself in the irrational and,, definitely I think this is appropriate,,, in certain instances, not if I'm like, you know, running a business, which has, you know,, when it comes to actual herbalism, which with therapeutic effects or if you're a clinician. But,, in my own life with herbs that aren't involved with SuperFeast, I've definitely just like lost myself in the irrational and just enjoyed that experience and not needing an explanation for why a herb., Is growing a particular way,, why it responds to light or not, you know, like the way it feels when it's fresh in my mouth and exactly as you're saying, the way that the lightness, the color, that it produces. When I, put it into a tincture and all those things, just really enjoying that process.

And I think that's really,, lovely. And then I think almost like the rational mind. I know what it's like when I'm in a rational place. . It's almost been scary to then oscillate from the rational into that place that is say,, irrational and allow myself,, to be directed by that sensory engagement. Just because I'm so used to say when I'm running, on the business side of things with super fees, I just get to that point, you know, we're doing a TGA listing, we're going back and we're finding like, you know, this weight, this dry equivalency leads to us be able to, use this claim and all that type of stuff., And I'm, I really do thank the gods of herbalism that I had that, that anchor to remember that like, hang on,, let's go back and get some Dong Quai, and, you know, like sit with it, as you said, whether it's sitting with the powder., At the time I've had the dried root here.

you had,, made tinctures and let's just have a little taste. Let's just have a little feel, and then. What you were saying about, remembering all of the information is what really got me. 'cause that's where I really fall down. I do not care. like one of my favorite memes is like. You know, you can see the boxes inside the brain and you know, this guy's like, hi, I'm Michael. And then for me it's like trying to fit Michael's name into that. And it's like, there's a box that's, like little bit about my career, a big Simpsons quote thing box. And it's like,,, hey Terence, nice to meet you. And there's just no room. And that's how I really feel. But, . About like towards all this theoretical information. However, once I get a bit of a sense,, especially if I'm thinking about, say, a women's general health or hormone formula, if I'm thinking about a postpartum formula.

You get that sense with that intention, and all of a sudden I get really hungry for very specific rational explanations. Or I do recall something that I would never have been able to remember for a test or, in a conversation or a lecture or something like that. But all of a sudden, like I had this happen recently. I was like. Hang on. I do remember reading about Dong Quai and,, the instance of the,, blood building and blood moving. It's a lot to do with the, and then I was like, oh, the tip. And I was like, that's what I was thinking. I was thinking like, this is invigorating and building, and I remember that there was something to do with, the tip often that's taken off and so on and so forth. Anyway, that, I just think what you bringing up that skill of losing yourself in, that say like that multidimensional place, but then.

Just, the benefit of being able to sense and then being able to cipher through all of those 300 hacks mm-hmm. And being like, bang. Oh my God, that explains that level of engagement and oscillation. Like it's its own little tennis match. It's something that I find really interesting about this. Process.

Stephanie:

Yeah. Oscillating between the rational and non-rational. That's an interesting way of thinking about it, and I wanna put here that, when I talk about something, I'm very passionate about, which is the resoling of herbalism and the re embodiment of herbalism, it doesn't mean the throwing the mind out, right? It is just about. I'm a real advocate for finding, the point where those three things meet, you know, the heart or soul. The body and the mind. And for me, I think I've made a little model for myself where it's that place where those three spheres overlap. That we have real wisdom, right? And that's not just in herbalism, that's in everything that when we can,, gather data, gather sensory information through the body that when we can actually practice the art of her practice, herbalism or practice Chinese medicine or practice any kind of medical disciplines.

The reason we call it practice, get to do it. It's not just something you think . It's not the thinking of herbalism. I'm a herbal think no, I'm a whole practitioner. Right? There's a reason we say that because you need to practice it through the body, in the body of others. And still be able to have useful models and framings and ways to analyze and make sense of what you're bringing in. Right?, But I think that if all we're ever doing is sitting in the analysis done by other people, so even if we're analyzing lots of information that other people have analyzed from other people who've analyzed, and at some point all that information, all that scientific literature, someone actually sat there doing something and feeling with their body what it's like to take Dong Quai.

And then we just abstracted it and built upon an abstractions, like we've just gotten really far away from that original embodied action. You know, and one of the thing I've been thinking about lately is that in the teaching of herbalism, and I'm not sure if it's the same in Chinese medicine currently, but definitely naturopathy, herbal medicine, we talk a lot about science, but there's no actual practice of science. Because if you sat down in a room and you said, here, 10 herbs. Come here. Feel them. Touch them, what do you notice? That is actually the practice of the basic art of science. It's like creating an environment, testing things. And seeing what happens. Oh, let's put them all in a bottle of water and see how the teachers move. That's like, you do that in grade 10, biology or chemistry. Right. And then you don't do that anymore, in herbalism or naturopathy.

And I dare say not Chinese medicine either these days. Right. So we're not encouraged to actually embody science, we're encourages to think about other people's science, and then it becomes more and more and more abstract. And I think then when you're sitting in clinic, that there's a way that you are only taking in what someone says or you're looking at,, data that's come through a blood test or something that you have no way to sensor really, or in physically engage with, right? Like if I'm looking at the, you know, markers of white blood cells, immunoglobulin and cytokines and whatever, that is something that I can only engage with in a disembodied and hyper-rational way.

Whereas if I'm looking at someone's tongue or their pulse or their urine or you know, touching them, feeling what their skin feels like, heaven forbid we don't really touch people in western herbalism, naturopathy, which is insane. I dunno how you can call yourself a healer. Anyone listening who is a naturopath or a herbalist or studying to be one of those things? I encourage you to do some kind of body work modality because when you can touch someone, you learn a lot about them., How does their skin,, what's the tension of their skin when you actually touch them? Do they feel like they're tight and stressed, or do they feel like they're floppy and depleted? Mm-hmm. When you actually can touch someone, you not only learn about them, but you also can do a kind of non-rational healing, right?

There's something really healing about being touched, especially today when so many people are in isolation, they feel lonely, they feel judged. They're sitting on their phones having fake relationships through the virtual abstract world of social media, and their bodies are hungry for connection. We are animal bodied beings. We're hungry for connection with the plants. We're hungry for connection with the earth. People now get up in the morning and instead of going and watching, look going outside and looking at the morning while they drink their cup of tea, which is what my parents would've done at my age. Sit outside and, I remember my dad sitting on the deck with his coffee and just taking a moment. Now everyone's doing that on their phones, so you're not even looking at real light anymore.

Everyone's hungry for an embodied, a return to embodied relationship with themselves, with people around them, and with the earth and with the plants. And so if you're a clinician who is embodied yourself and you're practicing herbal medicine in an embodied way where you're touching and looking and sensing, not only do I think you're gonna have a better outcome with your clients. Because of the incredible intelligence of the body coming in to inform the mind, to have better clinical situations, better clinical diagnoses, but you also can be supporting your clients to return to a more embodied state and be advocating for that in their lives. And I think honestly at the moment, getting your clients outside, looking at the sun rise in the morning, or,, just,, getting sunlight on the skin or just going for a walk with no device and no podcast in their ears.

That is gonna be a better life hack than analyzing their diet a lot of the time.

Mason:

Might be good time to like, just to frame that we're talking about practitioners here, but even,, I mean a lot of people will be practitioners listening, but, a lot of those won't. And even just looking at that next layer of someone who's in their own life,, whether it's just themselves or with their kids, or,, maybe a, group of mates just obviously without, maybe without as much expertise. Obviously not as much expertise as a practitioner, but. Same rule applies to not be, feel, scared to touch your kids or touch your own organs. And,, I don't know. I was doing like a live a few years ago and I was like, and I just kind of don't jump in.

Stephanie:

You don't necessarily mean, uh, quote unquote organs, literally touching your liver or touching your, that's what I mean. Oh yeah. I guess that's like

Mason:

even. And that is, yeah,

Stephanie:

self-pleasure, like getting embodied. Well,

Mason:

self-pleasure as well., Especially for guys, we've done a few podcasts on this, you know, spend a minimum 20 minutes., That's an uncomfortable practice even in itself. I don't need to go there, but, bring it up. I still find it confronting, even though I live in this world every now and then, if I slip for a little bit, I get busy like 20 minutes as a dude, without any necessary, like agenda and then just spending that time. So like, anyway, that like, going back to the actual, what I meant, that was a Freudian slip, which is that had to just come up. But yeah, touching the liver, that was, like I was saying a few years ago, on the live, I was just like, you know, I don't want anyone else if I wanna heal yet. I touch myself in context of going in and like exactly having a little prod around., Now. I do find it.

So I just wanted to, frame it for people that aren't practitioners,,, and likewise, if you're not a practitioner, when you go and see a practitioner or a part of people like myself who's not a practitioner engaging in this type of conversation is when I go and, I do go and see someone, I've also got those standards of what I can expect of,,, a naturopath or a.

Stephanie:

I think as both as a practitioner,, but definitely, as someone who sees practitioners, it's very easy to be, become infatuated or,, you know, too trusting of hyper scientific language. And I find myself doing this a lot that because we live in a world that tells us that, the holders of truth is the scientific medical establishment. They know the true, true. Like in another era it would've been the holders of truth were the priests, right? Or whatever. Like there would be many different versions of that. But in our society we are told that the holders of the true, true truth are the medical scientific establishment. And, in the desire to be seen as valid and to be seen as holders of truth. A lot of natural medicine practitioners, including myself, will use language that sounds more scientific because it gives us more authority and people believe us more, right?

And what I find in a lot of people, myself included, my partner included, when someone, if you're listening to a podcast, you're listening to a practitioner and they using all this scientific language that you almost understand, but not quite, it makes it sound more authoritative, more intelligent, and must be, therefore, surely it's gonna be more effective. And so I would say. That when you're looking for a practitioner to resist the temptation of just going for the person who science sounds more scientific because it doesn't necessarily translate their ability to create healing. I think this is a big problem, right? With the lack of embodiment, we're trained to talk about the body in a completely disembodied way. So even though. Scientific language refers to the body. It does so in such an abstract way. It that's invisible to our senses.

We're talking about viruses and cytokines and immune cells and all of these things that there is no way that I can ever verify. In some, so I have an anthropology background. I was interested in medical anthropology. In some ways it's actually the same as saying in another era, oh well you're sick because someone did black magic on you. Or there's a spirit that came and invaded your blah, blah. You know that language is it's disembodied language. It's something that I can never verify or not through the body and. There is other language that we can use that still brings a rational mind on board to analyze and make sense of,, and analyze patterns that is based on sensory experience. And you know, Chinese medicine has this much better, right? When you talk about the energetics. So hot, cold, dry, moist. These are things that our body understands.

You can taste a herb and know if it's dry or moist often, right? Same with flavor theory, same with elements, things that you know, someone, oh, there's too much fire in that person., That's not maybe scientifically true, but you know, immediately what they're saying. It's abstract, rational thought that is using embodied sensory language. And anyone interested in that point more? There's an amazing author called David Abram, who's a practical sensory animist. He's a book called,, becoming Animal That's. A beautiful poetic exploration of what it means to ground analytical thought and language into the senses.

So I think as someone, you know, thinking about not being afraid to think about herbs and talk about herbs in a more embodied way, using those kind of essentially old world., Framework framings and metaphors that are grounded in the sensory experience looking for practitioners who can do that. Not falling for the spell of pseudo-scientific language to give authority. And also just thinking about what embodiment means for you and your healing. So if you are someone who's seeking healing or wants to be better, are you going for all of, this latest hack based on this latest research? Or are you just taking the time to come back into the body, you know? Uh. So much stuff. Now, the latest hacks are all these for me, kind of returning to an animal state around, yeah, don't eat when it's a dark., If you were just camping. Or living wild. You're not gonna eat when in the dark.

It's hard to chop things up when you can't see what you're doing with your knife. And it's like, don't use screen, don't use artificial light at nighttime. That will improve your sleep. It's like, get up in the morning and look at the sun. All of these things that are embodiment practices are coming out as being the best ways to improve your mood, your brain function, your sleep, your metabolism. You know, it's like how do we just sink our bodies back to the earth and bring our awareness back into that embodied experience? That is a much more interesting question to me than what's the latest scientific hack that's gonna improve my mind function? Right?

Mason:

We're talking about institutions. So by when there's, herbalists coming out who,, got the theory and institutionalized and in Chinese medicine you mentioned, you know, Chinese medicine went through like a self colonization,, Rhonda Patrick calls it. Mm-hmm., To an extent maybe kind of seems necessary in order to. Break, cut the soul and heart out so that it can scale out and reach out there into the world. And, you know, it's like Chinese medicine or whatever to be something that can reach many corners of the earth. And then there has to go through a reclaiming and, lots of practitioners talk about, they come outta uni and they need to go through, an uneducation, like unlearning kind of phase and then engaged with the animism rather than going like, theoretically Pulse does this, tongue does this. I know that that's fire.

And go through that stage of realizing the reason we have five elements is because. When you sense of really perceive the patient in front of you or the friend in front of you, or yourself in front of you, you can start to get an exact feeling and go, okay, that most feels like fire, that I can sense fire. And the reason they use that analytical language is 'cause for them that's as close as they could get to the sensory perception and create an explanation. You watch practitioners go through their unlearning and then engaging with,, the classics and animism. So I think about people who are listening to this who have like, maybe it's psychiatry,, there's oncology, they're engaged with,, you know, endocrinologists and they're like, ah, I dunno how, if I can expect that practitioner to be able to facilitate this. Just what you see.

The feeling is in a person when it's like, yep, you're gonna get advice over here from that institution and you're gonna get this type of advice from me as a herbalist and this institution. However, what we're just looking for, the feeling that, you are going to get from all of that advice, and especially all that hyper scientific advice, which, you're not gonna be able to disengage with in like real chronic disease states. When they become embodied themselves. I've watched it happen with people who started off completely discombobulated, even for me,, I go, gosh, you were just so fortunate, or like, I know that you're an embodied person already, that you were able to facilitate yourself to go through this process, and you're like, right, I actually am gonna choose that.

Procedure, which I didn't ever think I would, or I'm not gonna choose that procedure and I know that I'm going to be working and doing this with my emotions, I dunno why, but I'm gonna be working with these herbs. You just see a bit of a, a certainty, even if there's still like, oh, right, I, I'm gonna have to like relinquish a little bit of my power to this institution, but I'm gonna make that confidently, whatever it is. You know, it's sometimes, I think, you know, this invisible thing I'm talking about when you watch a patient. Get facilitated correctly or facilitate themselves correctly, that sweet spot where they're able to make those choices and not like it is when embodiment is present. So I'm just, yeah, if there's any other, yeah, insights there.

Stephanie:

Just look for a practitioner who looks at you, you know, who really looks. Start there. Like it's amazing how many doctors I've been to and I've got, I have a couple of doctors who are great, who I see regularly, who actually like sit down and I almost feel like we're friends. They look at me, they're interested in me, like, I've got this thing, oh, can I have a look? You are like, yeah, sure. And oh, you mind if I poke it?, Like where there's actually a living interest in your body, not just in your test results, not just in the words that you're using. Like, okay, great, you've got this not just in your diagnosis, and that can be a medical diagnosis or a herbal diagnosis. Right. If you see a natural health practitioner and you go in, you say, oh, I've got endometriosis. And they go, cool. Put that aside for a moment. Thanks for telling me.

What does it feel like in your body?, What do you actually feel? What happens? What does this endometriosis mean to you? That's a good, good sign. Right. But

Mason:

that's helpful.

Stephanie:

Mm-hmm. Because if someone's just treating you through the mind, then there's a whole depth that's not gonna be there.

Mason:

Gosh, it's such a weird world., We are in, at the moment.

Stephanie:

Yeah. I,, I had a student,, last year who is,, an in senior infectious disease specialist in one of the big Melbourne hospitals. And she didn't tell me what her job was for maybe like,, the first module of my course plan allies., And then at the end of that, she's like, oh. I said, oh, what do you actually do? She's like, oh, I'm a medical specialist. And I was like, oh, really? Learning about herbs, doing heart sensing and embodiment in herbs. Right. And then she went on to do my full course following year, the wild edge of herbalism and. You know, she's one of my most passionate, devoted, and amazing students. And I asked her like, well, why did you sign up? You know, and what did you get out of it? for her, she was saying, especially during COVID, she just got sick of using all these synthetic things in packet. And syringes to treat people.

Obviously her job is like she prescribes a lot of antibiotics and whatnot., And she felt that there was this deep disconnection from the earth that was happening for her and from her body and from her intuition. She felt like she was a mind on legs using synthetic things created by other minds on legs. And that was supposed to be healing, right? And that's a really powerful thing for someone who's very high up in the medical, scientific kind of authority world, you know? Through the practice of taking herbs one at a time, not knowing what they are, having to tune in, having to listen to her body. This is how I structure my course, having to do a little meditation every day where you stop and you feel your body, how am I feeling? How is this herb moving through my body without knowing what it is? So you can't anticipate, you can't second guess yourself.

then as we go further on, actually like growing some of the herbs and making medicines with them. She doesn't use herbs in her practice. She can't, you can't be an infectious disease specialist in a hospital and be like, here, try some lemon balm for your cold sore. You know, although she said that every now and then she started picking the person and being like, you could, you know, look at this as an option. But she said that the biggest thing that's come out of that journey for her is that. She feels really clear about what she does and doesn't agree with in her profession. She holds stronger boundaries with her colleagues and she's. Has completely changed her relationship to herself because suddenly she feels by connecting with her body and her intuition and the plants in that way, she feels like she belongs to the earth around her.

That the earth is part of her, and that when she comes home from the hospital, she's actually coming home to rest in her garden, in the environment around her, rather than feeling like she was perpetually living in this disembodied state that was affecting her mental health really severely. Yeah, and we know that people working in hospitals generally have terrible mental health. And so she's had, this journey, which I was so touched to hear that like, you know, she said finally, I trust my intuition and my body in a way I never did because it had been completely trained out of me., I bet you she's a better practitioner now.

Mason:

Well, that's what I was gonna say, like, oh,, I'm interested even in that sense, how often have you heard about people who, um, suddenly come across a doctor or a nurse,, in those real institutionalized,, settings and it's someone., A little diamond in the rough who is an embodied person., Often a nurse let's Yeah. Yeah. Is going to come, walks along and sees you, and it's almost like the healing stamina of the patient for being seen comes to life. I've. So many of these,, story,, and I also will, you know, give credit to, even if you're a, just a part of them, you know, a cog,, obviously you're still doing an incredible amount of things, but that's, it takes a lot of energy to be that cog naturally then you don't have a lot of the energy in order to become embodied as well. And that's kinda what I wanted to talk to you about here is, you know.

That woman you were talking about, she's engaged in her own practice, she's engaged in, embodiment and heart perception. And so, which, if you kinda look at the Hippocratic Oath, if you look at the, father of Chinese medicine Sun Simiao, he's got a similar kind of,, oath that, you know,, for practitioners. If you really go into them, you're like, there's that,, there's the embodiment piece mm-hmm. It's an obligation that has been lost as I think, I guess the only way I can put it is we've seen, can

Stephanie:

you talk me through that? I don't know what the writing you're referring to.

Mason:

Through, well, Hippocratic Oath been the first one,, I'll go and, uh, maybe anyway, if you like, I first do

Stephanie:

No harm.

Mason:

Yeah, well,, that, but even like, I've got it up here., And I'll get Sun Simiao,, up next time you are chatting, I'll get it and

Stephanie:

Great. We can talk.

Mason:

But anyway, but either of them,, if you go through and read it, you'll notice exactly the part that we're talking about is whether it's like, you know, each patient gets treated individually or something along those lines, and. That's for me, I'm like, well, that's very obvious that, you know, that is time spent actually looking the patient and talking to the patient and feeling the patient and, and again, exactly observing, and you can go through like theoretic observation and a lot of people do it in Chinese medicine. They're like, yep, here's the questions. Yep. Boom. Yep, boom, boom, here's your protocol. Bang, I've done this a thousand times. And they'll hit quite a bit. But often there's just, that genuine perception now that comes.

As that woman who's your student, you know, she's engaged, so she's actually it's relevant for her the obligation as a healer that there are things, if she wants to have that role in society, she now has time in nature. She has engaged in something that helps her stay embodied. In her instance, studying with you, spending time with her plants, the plants to teach you that.,, I've talked about it before on the podcast, Tahnee,, my wife does Chi Nei Tsang organ massage. She doesn't at the moment because she knows she won't be able to spend the time doing that level of personal cultivation that would allow her to. Really be in that full state of perception because we've got the little kids at the moment, so she doesn't do it. But I find

Stephanie:

it so hard to practice herbal medicine to practice when I have a baby. So once they're not a baby, I can do it. But it's like the capacity to fuel myself with the Qi required to show up in that way,, to be fully embodied and present with the person is very hard.

Mason:

Well, I guess that's something, you know, if people are looking for an objective way to really look at a practitioner and be like, are you gonna be one of mine to really understand? Like, are they fulfilling that obligation to go and top themselves up and to genuinely cultivate and maintain that? And it's probably a very easy thing to have a little probe and Yeah., Get some clues around that.

Stephanie:

Mm. I think the other thing though, this, the conversation about embodiment is not only about practitioners, right? It's about like, I think, we are really suffering in our mental health at the moment, globally as a society, and we have to be asking ourselves why. And there are many, many reasons, but one of the threads of that disaster is definitely a lack of embodiment. A lack of interconnectedness, a lack of attention, or the interconnectedness of our bodies with the living world. You know, a lack of belonging to this earth. And I think especially for the young people, but everyone, everyone, everyone's feeling lonely, disconnected, disembodied, and we are spending so much time in these virtual landscapes that are,, they're distraction for the mind, but they do not fuel the soul or the body., And honestly, it's your body that's alive.

You know, like anyone who can meditate will know that the body is always in the present moment. The mind is like here, there everywhere. In the past. Next week, in the future, what might happen? Worries, fantasies. Stories. Memories, right? But the body is always here. Your body is alive. And so returning to the body and learning how to do simple practices like,, as simple as just go, sit in the sun, feel the sun on your skin. Watch the leaves moving in. The wind smell. Like just go through what can I smell? What can I taste? What can I feel? Feel the wind moving through you and just feel the fact that you are an animal body sitting on this earth breathing the air.

That is created by the trees, breathing out the carbon dioxide that the plants breathe, eating plant material and animal material, composting it in your gut, turning it into fuel and body, and then into feces that goes back into the soil. Like we are so animal and so embedded in this world, and the more that we forget that, the more anxious we get and the more depressed we get. For me, embodiment is like the solution to the addiction, to virtual digital spaces that we have. They're so addictive. You know, I spend way more time on my phone than I would like to, and I probably spend way less than the average person my age in the west, you know, get off social media., We actually started turning our phones off on Saturday nights and turning 'em back on Monday morning, having a full screen free Sunday. No computers, no phones, no excuses.

No podcasts, no music, and there's always a like, I just have to, you're like, no. And training yourself to do that. By the end of Sunday afternoon, there's this incredible sense of spaciousness and ease in our bodies, in our hearts. Like I really recommend trying that. For anyone who's listening, get outside, feel, put your phone down and just have scheduled time. You turn your phone off. Your mental health will really, really improve.

Mason:

And just adding to that, I think. The, probably, majority of you are gonna be in a position just to listen to that advice and get a reminder and then go and do it.

Stephanie:

Mm-hmm. But

Mason:

I, um, definitely also empathize with some of you that are just like, just hanging on and, you're like, Ugh, I will, but, you know, everything else around you is just like a crutch and that's not happening naturally. Mm. I mean, for me, I found myself in that position. Several times and I've like just to remember, you know, sometimes it's a little bit more, rather than adding something to your list, you might have to look around at the actual infrastructure of your life and your job and, the way that things are, and like for me, that the barometer of whether I'm like, you know, successful or not, is whether I'm naturally going back and doing those things and remaining embodied. And if I'm not, it meant I've had to go and make actual big. Dramatic, you know, have lots of, you know, time and financial consequences to it and or career direction to it or lots of things.

And I go and make that change, and then, oh my God, oh, it's happening naturally again. Okay, great.

Stephanie:

I mean, everyone, everyone can spend,, five minutes sitting outside and breathing a day, and some of them were just hanging on by a thread. We fall for the delusion. That our phone is helping us, that the podcast we're listening to is keeping our sanity, that just having a moment to yourself to scroll on your phone, you know, I call it dopamine hunting, that that's actually supportive and it's not. Mm. You know, actually moving the bo do like, exercise is a great practice of embodiment, especially if you're not listening to something while you're doing it. If you're actually just ex just feeling the body while you're exercising, going for a walk, you know, you can, every time you take a herbal supplement, people listening to this podcast are taking herbs, right?

If you have your SuperFeast product that you take in the morning, don't just knock it back like it's a tool to optimize the engine of your body. Take like 10 seconds as you're stirring the herb into the water just to feel the fact that there's these amazing plants that have grown somewhere actually in soil, somewhere under sunlight, and someone has harvested them with their hands and they've been prepared and they've turned sunlight and water into matter. And medicine that is gonna be medicine for your body and your mind. That's amazing. Like stir it and think about that and then as you drink it, just actually taste it. It, actually feel it and receive the medicine of that plant and just feel for a moment how it moves in your body. Literally 10 seconds is enough, but that will completely change.

I think, you know, and this is totally unscientific and not backed up, but my experience is when we bring that kind of reverence and awareness to the way we receive our herbs, we receive the medicine in a different way. There's more potency in it.

Mason:

It's very interesting you talk about that. 'cause it's a real prominent conversation in our organization at the moment and, it's always there as a project and that kind of like sentiment is always there, in what we do., However, it was funny,,, my brother who's like training to be the CFO, he does a lot of finance. He's a very. You know, he's a very metal element type of person and numbers, and so like, nothing really conceptual will sit there. It'll have to be hard, it'll have to be hard it'll be have to be a system or, you know, show in the numbers or something like that. Anyway, he's like, I just don't know what we're doing here. And I was like, oh my God, this is gonna be like a strategy conversation. I was like, where's the scaling gonna come from? Or something like that. He's like, where?

In the evidence of like, what, what our purpose is to ensure that people,, don't degenerate, as rapidly and, you know, enter into elderhood. Like, at what point do I know that that person knows the exact herb that's doing the exact thing and they know when to start? And so I was like, oh, okay, this is like, this is cool. I was like, okay, we finally, I realized there's been too much to capture in the business at once. It's been a two year laborious process of capturing all these intricacies that then regulates. How we talk and advertise in different places. However, I'd only been able to finally now go right here. I'm gonna pull out this document I have. It's called the six layers, like about, you know, around the six layers of the body, in Chinese medicine., Because it was just a nice little model and I was like, this is the client journey.

So you've got the three yang layers and then you get to the three yin layers. And I was like, it's only when you pass through those yang layers. Now they cross over to here. The way that you have evidence that someone is, is that you start talking in that sense where they start navigating their way around. The way I went around business was I started there,, I missed out. Like I just became completely unapproachable to a lot of people in the wider market, which was really appropriate I think. But we've spent that time really reengaging with the top of people who were like, Hey, what is a herb? But then my favorite 20 guys to work in Happy House, to walk in and go, any of this shit, do anything. You're like, oh, okay. That's where we start. Okay.

And, that's such a, an beautiful appropriate, really, I don't love it that place because it, requires hooks, it requires real reductionist language, language that in the marketing sense is like, really,, all those things. I. Really don't like about business just 'cause I find it boring mainly, but, I've got a team who's just like, they love that, you know, like testimonials, you know, we've got real hard rules on testimonials to ensure that they're general in the sense that exactly what you said, oh my gosh, these work, I didn't, but, and I've actually felt it. And, but so on and so forth. Like the,

Stephanie:

but that's, is that what you talk about? People getting to that. Through the three yang layers into the first yin layer, that there's actually a sense of like, I took this herb and I felt her to do X and that's why I know it's good for me. Is that, is that,

Mason:

no, that's the, it's probably only the second, it's probably the getting to that third layer. I dunno if I've got a, I've got,

Stephanie:

I think that's something people can take from this conversation as well. It's like if you wanna be an embodied user of herbs or the embodied kind of,, trying to think, user feels a bit weird as a word, but you know what I mean. Someone, who takes herbs. Then rather than trusting what you read, like use what you read as a starting point, but never believe it. Like take the herb, and actually take notes. Take literally take notes, with a pen and paper, be scientific about it and say, how am I feeling when I'm taking this herb every day? And then use that as your basis for assessment, whether reishi iss the right herb for you, or lions man's the right herb, or schisandra's the right herb. Right,

Mason:

absolutely. ., Getting to that third layer that, um, xia yang, so that's really only where the external and internal environments, like the mirror of nurturing the client relationship with balance thought,, oh, this one isn't the one, you know? Yeah. Guiding them from casual interest to general engagement. So generally that second layer is when they, yeah. They go, oh, hang on. Yeah, this. I actually felt something or I've got enough trust that I'll keep on going. That third layer is when it's as you said, that's actually had an impact. And then you go right now that you've had an impact, it's not that more's better or that you are gonna stay on this trajectory forever. Ah, as you go into the yin, it's like now you're sitting in your own perception. Now the context we want to deliver to you is that you have three treasures, or we'll put that in a more Western language mm-hmm.

That you can engage with. And now the decisions need to come from around what's genuinely the best. best and greatest thing, which is that could be much less, that could be much more that could be going and,, growing herbs yourself. That's where it gets to. As we get down to that sixth layer, the people who are in our community, and we have many down in that, to a yin layer, which is the deepest layer, they will have years off SuperFeast. They will get to the point where they might go. I give it to everyone, but I don't take it personally anymore. They might have their own tinctures or they might be people who do take it every single day religiously because they're just like, I've just know that,, whatever Reishi for now is a really great,, her for me., But for me to watch that. Like it's been such, I've talked to you about business, I've found it to be.

Such a slog in the sense, only because I'm impatient. That's the only reason., Which is my, you know, it's my medicine. I'm copying my medicine from SuperFeast, which is what I've, I, I am enjoying it. I think on the macro, I think like watching. Like I, I'm very aware of the dichotomy of having an organization that I do want to grow. I can feel it wanting to grow, but then if I watching what happens, especially if I was going to do what I know is what's very tempting at this point is you go and get an investor 'cause you can't do it anymore. And then you get what I often call as a born again executive who invests, who's got. You know, a surface level of spirituality about them, and then they're like, no, we're just gonna get this out there into the world. But you watch, it's only those top three layers of the journey that I ever able to, and I understand.

It's very hard to even communicate. There's only, like my brother at the moment, he got the theory of it all along, but him and the CEO, we've been talking about it, we're like, my gosh. Yeah. To feel that yin part of the journey. Emerging. Like I started my business telling people not to buy things if they're this and that, you know, and we need both at the same time. But,, yeah, everything that you are talking about there, of course, how difficult to have in a multimillion dollar international company yet it is a practice. It doesn't matter that I'm in an organization. I don't then, I then, which I have at times, and it's really mentally. Got me. I don't get to abdicate the fact that I also have my obligation to spend my time in nature, to spend my time around the herbs,, to do whatever I need to do to be embodied. So, yeah, for anyone thinking,

Stephanie:

and you're not just doing it for the business, you're doing it. 'cause that's what feels good in life. Like listening to money, so easy to forget being in a creek with your kid. Like it's not a hack, it's just life. You know? Embodiment is so important., I think this is such a topical. Thing to explore at the moment because in the AI conversation, we have a situation where the intellect, the intellectual aspect of the world,, the part of our brains, the part of our wisdom that is driven by data accumulation and data analysis. Which has been really given preeminence for a long time now in our culture, like our schooling system only looks at that capacity. You know, it's not looking at embodiment, intuition, anything else that might actually be really valuable for people? Practical living skills. Just that intellect., Can you absorb fact and data? Can you retain it?

Can you analyze it and can you project based, on that data? And can you regurgitate it at the right time? That's what as school systems testing for, and that's how we are learned. That's how we're being taught herbalism and naturopathy at the moment. That's really interesting with ai, 'cause AI does that, but it does it faster than we can do. It doesn't do it better. But it does it a hell of a lot faster. I'm like, and unfortunately it means, you know, we're so into doing things quickly that we will accept a lower level if it's 10 times quicker. As we just said. I used to edit my podcast episodes myself, took me like four or five hours. They were perfect., And now I can do it with AI in 10 minutes and it's, you know, 30% less good. But, you know, it's 10 minutes. So that's fine by me. This is a drop in quality. . AI does it so much faster than we can.

So if your herbal practice or your medicine practice is purely dependent upon knowing a lot of scientific stuff about plants and about bodies. Remembering it, and matching things up, then AI is going to replace you at some point, or you know, could, I'm sure it already is. I'm sure a lot of people are sitting on their computer putting their health problems in a chat GPT, and if you've set up, well, imagine you are a vitalist herbalist and, you are a specialist in mental health. Here's all my symptoms. You could even set up like I am hot use, energetic language and flavor theory. You know, it's gonna regurgitate that for you. I'm sure a lot of people are doing that. It's all, who would otherwise have gone to a health practitioner to get that information? Which herb do I take? Or gone to a herb shop. Right?

So then if AI can do that better than us, then what is the other piece that only humans can do? And that's that insole aspect, you know, and that embodied aspect of actually sitting. And yes, using that information that AI would use, but also that sublingual. Sensing that we can do, and also the soul of it, like having an intuitive capacity and bringing all of those things together to engage in the practice of healing. It's not healing. And having said you're seeing your clients isn't about finding the perfect formula and prescription for herbs or drugs or acupuncture points and magically fixing their problems. You're engaged in a relational like dialectic with that person. There's a theater of healing. There's a way that when you sit in your healing clinic and you embody the herbalist, the witch, the shaman, the witch doctor, whatever it is.

People's deep subconscious coming on in online there as well. You know, you are touching people., You're engaged in a relational journey towards wholeness and part of that AI can't do so as a clinician, learning embodiment in yourself, building in soul relationships with the plants that you use. You know through, yeah. Don't have a hundred herbs in your clinic., Have 12, actually know them. Matthew Wood says we need to know 30 herbs really well to be a herbal master. That's it. 30 most, I think I probably studied like 300 in my degree. Right. But did I know any of them with depth? No.

I've had to slowly over time build relationships with individual plants by taking them myself for an extended period of time, knowing what they feel like, with no other herbs, just saying that one herbs, I'm gonna commit to taking, you know, passion Flower or schisandra for a month, and I'm going to feel it in my body. 'cause there'll be things that I can't even articulate that I then understand about And of course it'll feel different in mine, but at least I have a sense of that map for me. And then. I think also knowing the story of those herbs. So, you know, I don't know about schisandra, but Passion Flower has a beautiful myth about it. Growing out of the broken heart a, of a indigenous woman who fell in love with,, the son of a con and that it was forbid in love and he was killed. And so she went to his grave and, you know, killed herself with an arrow through the heart.

And the fashion flower grew out of her broken heart, and it's an amazing plant for. Grief for stress, for worry, you know? And when you have those stories that are mytho poetic, that speak to the subconscious, you've taken the herb, you know the taste, you know how it feels, you know how it's changed your life. And especially if you then are doing that in a group and you know how it's changed other kinds of bodies and lives. Then when you're sitting in the clinic, those herbs will just come. I find that I'm with someone and I'll be like, oh, I'm just feeling, you know., In the room. And often if I, then use my intellect to press on whether that's actually right. You know, I don't just go, oh, I just, I don't know why, but I'm feeling some ridiculous herb. That makes no sense in the context, you know, occasionally if it's a good friend, I might be like, look, this is a bit out there.

Can we just try? But usually I then using my intellect to pressure test those more numinous and nebulous feelings and see what happens. Like, you know what I mean? I do, there's an integration of those things that,

Mason:

or a couple of things. I mean, the sense like, that's the one thing I think is often why this is papo so much because it's like. you know, I just got a vibe. Just trust me, and you know, and it doesn't. And it's like, but in in when this is done with which is perfectly fine. I do that all the time with myself, with my family, you know. That's an appropriate time to do it as a practitioner is like nothing, you know, for me. Whenever I'm you know whether it's like formulating or whatever it's like. There's no better pleasure to to pick up on something and get such a strong sense, and then go and find, like, you know, based on these symptoms, or whatever you know, it's like you're like, Oh, my gosh, there it is! There's the connection. Oh, my gosh, it's so actually, maybe because of that. That shows that gives me clues about the lung.

I'm going to go and actually ask more questions about the lungs, and you go. Oh, my gosh! Something got uncovered there, and then you go, get completely gets corroborated. So.

Stephanie:

Yeah.

Mason:

Even use AI like that right? You would use AI to pressure test on an intellect data driven way. Some of your more nebulous and esoteric assumptions or feelings. AI will make you feel amazing, and they'll be like, Oh, my gosh! Great insight! You're such an incredible, gifted healer, and you'll be like. That's right. I'm the one that can. I think it's very important for people to. You know. There's so many lovely things being said that AI won't be able to replace this about humans or that about humans. And sometimes the things that people are talking about. I'm like, no AI will totally replace that I think you're off your head if you, if you don't think that kind of person is going to be that role is going to get replaced. But when it comes to this, it is even if they create synthetic sensory organs that plug in and hear inflections of voice, and so on and so forth.

There will never be the capacity of a machine or AI to do the particular type of sensing that I believe like that. I believe we're talking about here today.

Stephanie:

Yeah, I remember years ago I was at a metagenics Congress in natural medicine on dementia and brain health, and I can't remember the person who was speaking so I'm sorry. But there was a professor who was studying dementia was a medical professor, and he'd been a doctor for a long time studying dementia in the States. He was kind of the keynote speaker, and he did a few talks, but one of the talks he was was all about what he called the leap of insight in diagnosis. And so he was saying, after 40 years of practice he was finally willing to get up on stage and speak about in this room with all these? What he probably thought were these real woo woo naturopaths? Because you know, natural medicine Congress. that that actually the diagnoses that he made that he knew were really good. Were he would gather all the data and all the things.

But then there was something that would happen at a certain point, maybe not the 1st session, but at some point when there would be a leap of insight that was kind of non-rational. That would take that would kind of like assimilate all the data. And I would say, you know, as a herbalist, yes, if they're having blood tests, or they've got diagnoses that's interesting. Then great their lived experience, their symptom picture what you've noticed when you've touched, when you've listened, when you've sat with them, when you've watched them walk, when you've looked at their tongue, all of these different things we're doing. But then, ideally, there's a leap of insight that that attains a higher level of intelligence than just the mind alone can attain. And so he was talking about this, and I was like, Oh. I love that so much, and I love that it was coming from a professor of dementia research.

because that was him acknowledging that there is something non-rational that happens in the healing room. That is really, really important, and that is something AI cannot do, and I don't know how to teach that. But I do think that learning your herbs and your body in an embodied way, using using analytical language that is based on sensory perception, like energetics and flavor theory and constitution theory that's very helpful and practicing, like relationship building with plants through the heart sense. Through that Stephen Buhner's heart sensing, actually learning how to feel the person in front of you, and learning how to become friends with the herbs in your clinic. So you know them really well, that will support that leap of insight to come about in clinic.

Mason:

Well, I think that is what you teach like. That's through the herbs, giving us that opportunity to learn that skill of embodiment that would be the exact same skill that would be utilized at that point, just to open up that heart sensory for the patient, even though there's no herbs involved in the prescription. Their lungs will talk to you, their organs will talk to you, their skin will talk to you, the inflections of their voice stop becoming theoretical, and you start to then go and refine like, I'm going to ask this question because I got this sense. Actually, what happened here? How long is this symptom? You know, whatever it is. And then I so yeah, I'd say, that's exactly what is probably being taught. And anyone can learn with yourself and the herbs.

Stephanie:

That's true. I actually have a course starting. The wild edge of herbalism is starting on the 14th of August, which is very soon. There are still 4 places left, and I would love to fill them with some wonderful SuperFeast. And it's for practitioners, but also not practitioners. So, as you know, we have had a lot of people who study with me, who just want to deepen their relationship with plants, with their own bodies, with their own intuition. and it goes for 4 months. But there is an option just to do the 1st 5 weeks of plant allies. So if someone just wants a taster. You can jump in for that 1st 5 weeks, and what we do in that 5 weeks is every week. We're taking a different herb, a tincture, and there's a whole way I teach you.

It's very simple of a daily attunement practice where you feel the herb, you taste the herb, you take it, and you just have a little notebook that you've got to fill out. It's kind of like a mini scientific experiment mixed with an intuitive sensing mixed with embodiment, you know.

Mason:

And.

Stephanie:

To take that herb every week without knowing what it is, and that why that's so powerful is because that just takes the mind offline for a moment, and our minds are so overdeveloped, mine too massively overdeveloped, that unless I can take the mind offline for a moment, it's hard for me to learn and develop the skill of intuitive sense of embodiment. I don't trust myself if I can't take the mind off and then be like oh, wow! You know what? That's what that herb was. I really did notice that. And I didn't even know it. So people then develop this amazing confidence in their sensory capacity through that blind, trialling.

Mason:

I mean. Gosh! If you want to say there's a pandemic of anything that deserves like a big shutdown of everything it is that that cutting off, of trusting ourselves. And they're like, right, everyone. We're shutting everything down other than the minimum. Everyone go to the beach. Everyone go and read.

Stephanie:

We trust AI, which is a random number generator at base, that is, regurgitating common opinion like, it's like the average of what's found on the Internet. It's like, it's like, basically making an average that we trust that more than we trust, our own intuitive, embodied experience like that is very problematic, and that's probably what scares me about. AI is not what AI can and can't do. But it's again, we're placing the locus of authority so far outside ourselves into something we don't even understand, and completely forgetting the authority and the wisdom and the power that comes from owning these very sensitive organs of the body and the heart like. There's so much beauty and power and authority in just taking a home and saying, well, I felt this.

Mason:

It is worrying. I mean, I think that's part of the there's going to be a I always talk about it. Is that going to be a genetic split or a couple of them, but the difference will be between, like the chasm of those who are willing to go through the heroines, or the hero's journey to reintegrate with that side of ourselves where you can trust ourselves and make these irrational. although then you can go and find the rational, and you go. Oh, yeah, that makes sense, but seemingly irrational to institutions in the world like, why would you do that? Why would you give that up, why would you? It's like I trust myself. I'm going to go in that direction. And now I've actually got the rational explanation as well. But that's gonna they're going to be 2 different species.

Stephanie:

Totally. Yeah. I should have a clinic story to to the points of that, if that's always nice to have a story. So I had a client last year who was having all these micro strokes. She's like Mini, they would, they would, you know, went to the hospital, or you're having mini strokes, and she's only like 45. And she's having bruising brain fog, fatigue, depression, trouble, sleeping, you know, a kind of very normal package of midlife issues these days, except for the Mini strokes. And 1st of all, I gave her Ginkgo and Ginkgo really helped in a bunch of ways. It is a classic. I use my mind for that, like ginkgo and strokes and blood thinning. You know I was worried about her. That was the 1st step I just gave her one herb. That's how I practice now. Most of the time. I give someone one or maximum 2 herbs at once. and just to see what happens? They come back 2 weeks later. How did you go?

What did you notice? And then? And then I add a second herb to see how we go again. I was using my mind. So the brain fog and the was still a problem, and so was the depression. I thought, oh, well, Rosemary will be great here. Rosemary is a nice, warming, aromatic herb. It increases brain function beautifully. It is great for circulation. She's got a whole liver thing, you know it's going to be perfect. Mind, mind, right. gave that herb to her 2 weeks later came back. She's like, I don't know. I don't feel great. And then I remembered. So it wasn't Rosemary, and also what I learned through that practice through that practice of herbalism, she said. I just feel kind of hot and agitated. I was like, Oh, you look like you're cold to me. But clearly a heating herb was too heating for you. So then I actually need something cooling.

So that's an example of like embodied practical learning through praxis in the clinic and then, when she was talking in her 1st session, she was talking about her very difficult life, of being a carer for her highly autistic teenage son, and how much work that is. And I was really feeling for her, and she's a really strong woman like you have to be strong to do that. It's very difficult. And in this, resonant in the room was the story of Yarrow. The mythopoetic story of Yarrow Yarrow is a plant that I love very much, just on a kind of soul level, and I.

Mason:

Sense that in the room.

Stephanie:

Yeah, well, I'd been teaching it like maybe not a month before, maybe. And so it was fairly present. And the story of Yarrow is that of the wounded healer. So Achillea, Melifolium Chiron gave that herb to Achilles. Hence Achillea, and that was one of the myths. Is that it grew from the blood that was shed on the battlefield at Troy. When Achilles heel was pierced, therefore, killing the only point of vulnerability that he had right. The other story of Yarrow is that it's linked to Chiron. and Chiron is the Centaur in Greek mythology, who discovered herbalism and brought to the people because he was wounded with a bolts from one of the gods. So it was a never healing wound. He had a wound in his flank that just bled for eternity, and he was immortal.

And so, in his search for trying to find this a cure for his ever bleeding wound, he discovered all the medicinal plants of the world never healed himself, but he gave them to brought herbalism to humanity. So Chiron, you know, is the archetype of the wounded healer and or the wounded warrior. So you get this, this mythopoetic resonance with Yarrow of someone who is always looking after other people and deeply wounding themselves in the process. And so when she was talking about her journey with her son, and I was just sitting there listening to her, I just felt the resonance of that plant. And that story, that archetype. And I thought, Oh, yeah, no, I think it's Rosemary. I discounted that after we tried the rosemary she came back, and I said, well, look, let's give Yarrow a try again.

This is a bit of like I just have a vibe, but you know there's some connection there, because it is a herb of the blood. So Wood calls Yarrow the master of the blood. We'll do anything that's to do with bleeding, you know. Heavy periods, no periods, blood noses, coagulation, excess, bleeding whatever. It's a regulator of the blood in the body, and because of that it can do lots of other things. So I said, well, there's obviously something going on with your blood. Let's give it a go. Amazing! All of her brain fog disappeared. She started sleeping better. She's still taking Ginkgo and Yarrow like a year later, her periods regulated. She'd been having flooding periods, she said. Her energy and her mood are so much better again. I can't really rationally PIN why, Yarrow would have that effect on her mood and brain and sleep, because it's not known to be that.

But there was the the plant spoke to me on that soul level.

Mason:

And she'll have that relationship for the rest of her life with Yaro, which is another feeling that maybe a lot of people haven't had taken a lot of herbs. You take a lot of supplements, but you haven't felt that kinship.

Stephanie:

And especially if you're taking like 10 supplements and 10 herbs at once. Like, if your morning looks like, okay, put my jing in the thing with my Creatine and my passion flower extract, because I'm stressed, plus my b vitamins, because I'm tired. I'm not saying that's wrong to do that. But unless you take the time with each one of those supplements and herbs to actually take them on their own, you don't know what's doing, what all you're doing is taking them because you read somewhere it was good for you. and that's disembodied and disenfranchised. You're not grounding the authority of what you're putting into your body, into your own experience. You're trusting someone else's podcast slash article, slash research about that that substance.

Mason:

Yeah. Well, if they're interested in finding a way to be able to feel it, because I definitely understand. You know, you're doing your best and putting everything into a smoothie. But if you're ready for the next leap, best website, best place for them to find info on the courses.

Stephanie:

stephaniehazel.com.au slash courses, and that you'll find it there, and I'm offering all SuperFeast listeners a discount of 15%. So the 4 month course does that blind trialing. We also have a 4 day in person retreat, which is all about embodied animus practice. So we're going to be, you know, feeling the wind doing Stephen Harabuna, soul listening, practices, talking to plants, getting in the hot tub, making herbal medicine without like making oils and tinctures and things like that. Super fun.

Mason:

I love it. Have you got a newsletter? If I'm just in case, you know, I'm sure some will jump onto this time. But informed of the next courses.

Stephanie:

Absolutely. If you want to know about the next round, then jump. You'll see on my website as well. So 15% off you can either do the 4 month version, which is, you know, super juicy, or the 5 week the 1st 5 weeks as a standalone. It's a really nice way just to practice the art of embodied sensing.

Mason:

Is that online, that one.

Stephanie:

Yeah. So it's every Thursday evening or Saturday morning depending which group you sign up for, and it's 2 HA week for 5 weeks.

Mason:

Easy that one's an easy.

Stephanie:

Yeah, but you get a little package in the mail with all your herbs and tinctures and things like that. So you actually get like if there's something, if there's something embodied about it, even though it's online.

Mason:

100%. I was just thinking there's gonna be. I know there's gonna be someone in like New Zealand or Tasmania that's going to be listening and be like, Okay, just, I didn't realize if that was like had to be in Uk, or whether I.

Stephanie:

No, no, it's all online. I have. I have clients. I have people in France, in Holland, in Norway, in Phoenix, Arizona that are doing the course as well. So it's like, but mainly in Australia. If you are further away, sign up really soon, so I've got time to post your box to you.

Mason:

Yeah, yeah. Okay. Oh, gosh, well, let's let's. I mean, we. It worked last time. We're like, I kind of, I think I don't know what it'll be yet, but I feel like there'll be an emerging of another topic that I think we will need to dive into next time. This has been good, really good. I felt really you know, always like it when I come out, and I'm like I am kind of like. I don't get just insights, you know. I've got a few little like, Oh, yeah, I've kind of stashed that away, that's you know, a few, a few. I guess they are insights. But yeah, a few embodied insights, then. So.

Stephanie:

Yeah. And the thing is, you haven't actually learned anything, no matter how many podcasts you listen to, unless what you're reading or listening to changes your behavior. You haven't actually learned anything. You've just done a bit of lovely mental masturbation. So if anything in this really speaks to you that we've been talking about today, whether you're a practitioner or not, then actually put it into practice today, because then there'll be something else you listen to go and do it today. Do it the next couple of weeks, and then you'll have actually learned something from this process. Once it changes the behavior, you do.

Mason:

I love it so much, not going to be a part of that mental masturbation.

Stephanie:

Nothing wrong with masturbation, though, as we established earlier.

Mason:

Yeah, but there's a spectrum of quality. I'd say.

Stephanie:

Yeah, so 15% off for all listeners. And any questions I just reach out to me, even if you just want to chat about what we're talking about love to hear from people you can find all that on my website. stephaniehazel.com.au.

Mason:

Beautiful. Have a great day. Can't wait to come up and have a couple with you in Uk sometime.

Stephanie:

Yeah, I look forward to it. Take it easy.

Mason:

Urge everyone to go and check out the other podcast as well.

Stephanie:

Yeah, the elder tree podcast I'll send you the link to the Stephen Harry Buhner tribute. So you can share that with your people.

Mason:

Wonderful, see everybody.